Category: Dating and Relationships
I asked this question kind of off-hand in graffiti, you can see it at the top of Sex Addicts if you want.
Anyway, I asked what people thought about fucking a trans person. I'm not sure what I expected the answer to be, but most of it was along the lines of "gross," or "that's weird," or "I would be friends with one, but they shouldn't expect me to be attracted to them," ETC.
I can understand not being attracted to someone who's trans because they have the "wrong" genitalia for your liking, but I'm having kind of a lost moment right now where I'm not sure what the mainstream public (that is, people not within the LGBT community) know or believe about transgender people.
I know many trans people, and I'm currently in a class called Intro to Transgender Studies, so this has become something I'm much more knowledgeable about recently. I think I've taken for granted the acceptance of my friends and classmates and people I surround myself with, and I don't know what most of the straight, non-transgender population thinks.
So what do you guys think? What is the extent of your knowledge about the topic? What would you like to know more about the topic? How would you react if you found out that someone you knew was transgender, or if someone close to you came out as transgender?
And, of course, what are your thoughts about fucking/dating trans people. That too.
I'm just a bit concerned at the ignorance (not using that word as an insult) in some of the responses I got on graffiti. I don't think most people know much about the actual situation with trans people. As disabled people, I think it's important for us to understand other people who are going through tough shit, and to be open-minded to them.
Thanks guys,
Jake
For me, I'm attracted to men, so if a woman managed to turn in to a man, I'm not sure the chemistry would be there. No one's fault. That's just how it is. That said, people have a right to be whoever they want to be.
I'm not sexually attracted to anyone whether they're trans or not. However, I'm curious about something. Several years back I met a trans woman. At the time I didn't know she was trans. All I knew was that she sounded and smelled like a guy. The smell for me was the most confusing part; I used the wrong pronoun at least twice because of it.
I'm wondering if all trans people smell like the gender they transitioned away from or if the latest hormone treatments and early interventions change that.
I have also met trans people. Male to female, and female to male.
They still smell and feel like the sex they were before.
I’ve not been close enough to be intimate, but have been invited to touch their hands and arms, and of course, you can smell people.
Even if a guy or male that has had a complete sex change, can wear perfume, but it doesn’t cover up natures scent.
I don’t care about them wishing to change, and I understand mentally how they feel.
However, I couldn’t be physical with someone I knew had changed.
First, she’d not feel like a natural woman.
Sex with her would not be natural either, because she’s been altered to be female.
She’d not taste like a woman either.
I’d not call myself ignorant for not being attracted to someone that has been medically altered in this fashion, just that it wouldn’t feel, or be natural.
I don’t know how much sex you’ve had, but it not be the same.
Bone structure, skin texture, and just many things would be off balance especially to a blind person that goes on smell touch and taste when it comes to physical, or intimacy.
I understand mentally they have changed, but naturally, they have not.
I’m not even interested in women that have had breast implants as far as feel.
They look great, but to the touch, they simply don’t feel natural.
I do wonder how good the built vaginal is done? Do they give them a service, the clitoris, and the upper section and pelvic structure?
Even natural women that have had their uterus removed, still have other traits that make them feel like women.
A girl with all her parts feels quite different then say a masturbation sleeve.
So, for me, it just doesn’t work.
Next, I’d have a mental block. She was once a man. Smile.
I have also met trans people. Male to female, and female to male.
They still smell and feel like the sex they were before.
I’ve not been close enough to be intimate, but have been invited to touch their hands and arms, and of course, you can smell people.
Even if a guy or male that has had a complete sex change, can wear perfume, but it doesn’t cover up natures scent.
I don’t care about them wishing to change, and I understand mentally how they feel.
However, I couldn’t be physical with someone I knew had changed.
First, she’d not feel like a natural woman.
Sex with her would not be natural either, because she’s been altered to be female.
She’d not taste like a woman either.
I’d not call myself ignorant for not being attracted to someone that has been medically altered in this fashion, just that it wouldn’t feel, or be natural.
I don’t know how much sex you’ve had, but it not be the same.
Bone structure, skin texture, and just many things would be off balance especially to a blind person that goes on smell touch and taste when it comes to physical, or intimacy.
I understand mentally they have changed, but naturally, they have not.
I’m not even interested in women that have had breast implants as far as feel.
They look great, but to the touch, they simply don’t feel natural.
I do wonder how good the built vaginal is done? Do they give them a service, the clitoris, and the upper section and pelvic structure?
Even natural women that have had their uterus removed, still have other traits that make them feel like women.
A girl with all her parts feels quite different then say a masturbation sleeve.
So, for me, it just doesn’t work.
Next, I’d have a mental block. She was once a man. Smile.
I suppose a trans could lie to me, but as soon as we became intimate, I'd know something wasn't right.
Oops I dual pasted that. Sorry.
Interesting topic.
To answer the question as bluntly as possible, I don't think about trans
people. The ones I know I just think of them as people, because that's what
they are. I've never found myself attracted to one, but that has nothing to with
the fact that they are trans.
I've been told that this can be an offensive way of looking at it, but I don't
think it is. I see them just like I see everyone else.
I can agree with that as long as we are just relating on a basic status. I'd not be wondering about them.
But when you add the intimacy, that is were for me it changes. Now I'm thinking about them as trans.
Voyager, the smell is really individual. If the trans person is going through cross-sex hormones, they'll usually smell more like the sex they're transitioning too because of the difference in their body hormonal balance. However, sometimes that's not the case. It depends on if the person has a naturally strong smell, and how much hormones they're on. Obviously if they're not on hormones at all, they will probably have a body makeup of their assigned sex.
Also, trans women (male to female) have already been flooded with testosterone, the "male" hormone, and since it's such a powerful hormone, it can be hard to eliminate that typical man smell.
For trans men (female to male,) if they're taking testosterone, it can give them that man scent.
Testosterone is a much stronger hormone than estrogen, the "female" hormone. For that reason, trans women sometimes have a harder time passing as female because their voices don't go up, their large bone structure won't change, they won't get shorter, ETC.
Forereel, read this:
http://www.thetransgendercenter.com/index.php/surgical-procedures-2/vaginoplasty.html
It describes the procedure that some trans women go through for sex reassignment.
Basically, it looks and feels exactly like a vulva. You can have sexual intercourse with her. She has good sexual sensation from it. There's a clitoris, labia, and vaginal canal that are fully functional.
Thanks for your guys's interest. It's awesome. Keep it coming.
Jake
Sure, from the technical, I understand she'd be altered so she feels, and looks similar.
She can even enjoy sex, that makes sense too. But, she'd not feel the same nor smell or taste the same.
I read your profile, and notice you are Bisexual, so for you, this wouldn't be an issue at all as to how she felt.
I would guess the mental side, that you are actually with a man that is now a woman, wouldn't matter to you either.
You are interested in both sexes.
In the interest of understanding, have you been with either male to female, or female to male on an intimate bases?
For me, and this would be totally wrong, but I'd have to experience it in order to say, sure, it's the same.
If I could get past the body feel, and smell, or voice quality, I could learn, or if someone would allow me to see them.
That's not good or fair, because they now are a woman. They are not the experiment.
Tell me what your interest in this subject is, or why you feel you want to present it as natural, if you would?
Thanks for sharing the page.
I totally get where you're coming from.
I'm going to be honest with you. My interest in the subject is extremely personal. I am in a college course on the subject, and I do know a lot of trans people. However, I'm also female-to-male transgender. I don't generally come out as such unless I feel like it's necessary, for example, right now. I like educating people about trans issues, and if I can do that without coming out as trans myself, I prefer that because many have even admitted to me that they don't see me the same way after they know.
In this case I think that my personal experience as a trans man could lend some credibility to the information I give you about the topic.
I have also had sex with a trans woman, and she was pre-op (had male genitalia.)
As far as my own history with being trans, I'm nearly seven months on testosterone. I'm in a serious live-in and sexual relationship with a cisgender (biological) female. In real life I'm what is called stealth, which means no one except for my partner, my close friends and my family know that I'm trans. Everyone else reads me as a cute, short, cisgender pretty boy, and that's the way I like it. There's no reason for everyone I come in contact with to know what genitalia or reproductive organs I was born with.
If there's any specific questions you would have for me, I'd be more than happy to oblige.
Jake
Okay. Thanks for that. You could have told me privately, but you have explained things greately.
Your description in your profile makes more sense as well.
Not that guys aren't small and wirey, but most wouldn't describe themselves as such.
I was glad, or interested to note the surgeon on the site you gave me suggested fitness was a factor in success.
I see you have adopted this as well.
Do you find it was necessary?
I think trans people are people. I'm attracted to any gender, and to both the female and male body, so to me, it makes no difference. But I would treat them as the gender they are, regardless of body.
Could you be a little bit more specific, Forereel? I don't think I read the part of the site you did. Is fitness helpful/necessary for what exactly?
I do work out very regularly, mostly because I just enjoy it, but also because I'm building up muscle mass which obviously I did not have as a female. Testosterone spurs a large amount of muscle growth. My arms, legs, shoulders and chest have all dramatically increased in size and strength. I nearly rip shirts I used to be able to fit comfortably before starting hormones because of my shoulder bredth.
I should also add that though I identify as bisexual because in theory I'm attracted to both sexes, I'm significantly more attracted to women. Maybe a more accurate description of my sexuality would be heteroflexible.
Jake
The article you directed me to had an FAQ section for male to female transfer.
One of the questions was, could a person that was overweight have the operation.
The answer was that the person should be near, or at the BMI for their body type for the best success rates, but not specifically why.
You wrote in your profile you enjoyed working out, so I wondered if you had adopted the habit because it helped you heal?
I understand trying to put on more mass now you are male.
I’m in to fitness, so just wondered, but that is a complete different topic.
Can I safely assume you were more interested in women even before your transfer?
Your current girlfriend is biologically female, so she accepts you as you are.
What is or was your success rate at dating women after you became male once you explained you’d changed?
You have asked us about how we’d feel, and I can see how much information you’d get from this.
You are asking mainly blind persons that don’t go on the visual, and that’s a complete different group, and a way of thinking or relating physically.
I would say that not all blind persons are bothered by scent, feel, taste, and touch, but I’d think most would be.
It is how I relate completely when it is an intimate setting, but not a social setting.
I once was visual, so also understand how appearance plays a major role in intimate interaction.
Some sighted people are turned on by what they see more then how it feels and such.
I wonder if this is the case with you, being you are as you described yourself a pretty boy due to having a female slight body, and form, but are male.
Cool, I got you.
If I understand your question correctly, you were looking at the vaginoplasty for male-to-female trans people. I'm not male-to-female, I'm female-to-male, and thus I have not had that procedure. I don't need it either. There's an entirely separate genital sex-reassignment surgery for trans men to reconstruct a penis. I have not received this procedure either.
As I said, working out is mainly for me and my own enjoyment. :)
I identified as a lesbian before I began transition. I had no interest whatsoever in men sexually or romantically, because I loathed to be the female partner in any relationship. With women, even though they were lesbian relationships, I felt that I was at least the more masculine partner.
Once I began transition, I no longer felt so threatened by my attraction to men. It's still not nearly as strong as my attraction to women, but it's there and I'm okay with it. I'm okay being a man with another man, just not a woman with a man.
I was with my current girlfriend in a lesbian relationship before coming out as transgender. We've been together for almost a year and a half. When I came out to her, it began a huge cycle of breaking up and getting back together. She had the opposite problem than the one I have seen so far on here: she didn't care about my physical sex, but she wanted to be with a woman. She identified as a lesbian, and she could not picture herself with a man.
Eventually she was able to be at peace with it, because she found that she wants to be with me and only me. She doesn't care about my gender at all. We have the same sexual relationshipthat we did before. Actually, it's much better than it was when I was female, because testosterone has increased my sex drive from basically 0 to 60.
I never had a period between identifying as female and identifying as male to experiment with dating as a trans man, but based on the people I generally hang out with, it wouldn't be a problem finding someone who accepts me, male or female.
I think I wanted to get your guys's perspective for that reason: because you have a different perspective than a sighted group of people. I have mostly sighted friends, and I know how they usually feel. There's a lot of the same opinions, minus the scent and feel piece. Smell seems to be a much bigger factor here. I can only tell you that my partner has told me that my scent changed from literally like roses to a more musky manly scent.
Also, I only say that I'm a pretty boy because of how I dress. I wear preppy looking clothing and have a neat, tidy business-man's haircut. This tends to look clean-cut and pretty boy to a lot of people. I am a bit short, at 5'4, but I'm rather muscular and almost stout in stature after being on hormones for a while. As far as outward appearance, I'm a pretty attractive guy to biological people checking me out. I don't have a problem passing as male.
You have awesome questions, and I appreciate your interest.
Jake
Ah, okay.
You've got some ways to go then.
You are still basicly female, and feel female to your mate.
She's been with you, so you've changed, but not completely yet.
I understand about thehormones . Bodybuilders, and other people like myself are using them for more mass.
I personally haven't used them, because the research hasn't had enough time tosay.
In your case, it doesn't matter, and is a necessity.
Guys also find they have a increase in sex drive from the hormones , but do you think also you've got some mental push as well, because you now feel male?
I've always been interested in how same sex couples still have both sides of the male female relationship.
How long before you complete your transition? Or will you completely go that rout, to get a penis and such?
Jake, I'm of the opinion that they're just them.
I also know males who have become females and the other way around.
I can be attracted to males and female; it's not the sex, it's the person.
But I have one question. Have you ever, through your class or personal interactions with the trance community, heard of people who have changed gender so they could be with their opposite biological sex without ridicule?What inspires me to ask this that I'm bi, and though I'm in a hetrosexual relationship currently however, the majority of people I'm attracted to are also female. As much as I fall for the straight ones, I don't think I'd want to change genders so I could perhaps be more desirable to them.
Along the same lines of the above, I use to be friends with a couple where one went from female to male. They met when he was still female so I would think they were happy with a lesbian relationship. It got me wondering why he might have still wanted to change gender.
(so sorry if any of the language I used offended. I suppose along with the blind thing, language people use may unintentionally offend.
Also, let me know if I'm not making sense. Lol
Forereel, here's the thing about transition. It's really individual. So some people don't even get on hormones or have any surgery, while others get on hormones and nothing else, while others don't get on hormomes but still get various surgeries. The goal is not always to look exactly like the opposite sex. It really depends.
For me, I'm not planning on getting surgery to get a penis. I have no desire to have a penis. Also, the main procedures available for this are really not adequate with the current technology. If it were more perfected, maybe I'd consider it some time in the future.
I'm scheduled to get a mastectomy in the next few months to remove my breasts. Until then, I bind them in public. It looks like I don't have any, but of course I don't want to have to do that forever. Then I'll consider getting my female organs removed. After that, I don't plan on doing any other surgery.
As far as my partner is concerned, no, she doesn't see me as a female. There's a lot more to gender and sex than genitalia. I act like a male, I sound like a male (testosterone has deepened my voice as it does for biological males during puberty,) I look like a male, I just am a man. Our sex is sex between a man and a woman because that's what it is for us. It might not look like that from the outside, but that doesn't really matter. My partner definitely does view me as her boyfriend, and not her girlfriend.
Her sexuality underwent a little bit of a revolution because before she'd met me, she did kind of identify as bisexual anyway. I was the first woman she was with. It just took a bit of adjustment for us to both recognize that we're kind of queer, but we're attracted to each other and that's all that matters.
My sex drive is probably heightened due to the hormones and the fact that I'm approaching sex as a man and not a woman. It always turned me off to be treated like a female during sex, for obvious reasons. But I've noticed a huge increase in my desire for sex since starting hormones. I used to never initiate sex with my partner, and she would get frustrated because she was always the one initiating. It's literally the exact opposite situation now.
I guess I'll figure out when I complete my transition whenever that happens. I don't know when that will be yet. I guess when I'm completely happy with my body. It will probably take years. Luckily I have great insurance. :P
Jake
rdfreak:
Nothing you said offended me. Thanks for asking.
For the first part of the question, I've never heard of this happening but I'm sure it does. I would never advise someone to undergo such a massive, life-altering transition from one gender to the other in order to better fit a sexuality or be more attractive to someone. First of all, there's a lot more to switching roles than the physical. You have to really want to live as the opposite sex to put up with the monumental shift in social interaction as that gender. If you do not have a corresponding gender identity, you will soon suffer from a form of cognitive dissonance. An example of this is in a book I read titled "Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood" or something similar, by Nora Vincent. It's about a female journalist who lives as a man for a year and a half to collect personal experiences of the differences between living as a woman VS. living as a man. The differences are numerous, obviously, but at the end of the book she crashes into a depression which nearly leads her to suicide. She did not identify as a man, and living as a man created a dual personality of sorts.
Sorry for getting super long-winded, but in short: this is not a good idea because if you don't feel that you are that gender, it will suck.
Also, it's not a good idea because it might not work. You won't just instantly become attractive to those of your preferred sex.
For the second part of your question, I also think that someone might transition to the opposite sex while in a relationship. I also think this is a bad idea unless the person actually identifies this way. So the people you are talking about: he probably really does identify as a male, and that's why he transitioned. It probably had nothing to do with his or his partner's happiness with the relationship. It's all about his happiness with himself.
That's similar to my relationship. I had a hard time letting go of my lesbian identity because that's who I knew myself to be for a really long time before getting with my partner. She had a hard time letting go of the lesbian label and our lesbian relationship. But we both realized that it doesn't matter. We're with each other, and that's technically a straight relationship now, but the only thing that matters is that we're with each other and we love and are attracted to each other. A little corny I know, but true.
Hope this helps,
Jake
I remember my first introduction to the trans issue was back in 1990, when I was ten years old. A friend of mine who was the same age called me one evening, and mentioned that her sister had picked her up from school that day. I was puzzled, as the only sibling my friend had was a brother. I said something like, "But you don't have a sister," and she responded with, "Oh, but I do now. My brother is my sister now." I was completely confused, but already steeped enough in society's norms and taboos to know that this was not a common occurrence, and to react with derision and scorn to something I didn't understand. My friend, on the other hand, took her sibling's transition and new identity with nothing but acceptance and openness, almost a childlike innocence. She had a sister, and that was just fine by her. For years I attributed her easy acceptance of this to the fact that she has an intellectual disability, but I now think it goes way beyond that. That may have been part of it, but it was also that she loved her sister, and if that was how her sister was happy, that's what she wanted for her. For years, I privately referred to this particular trans person as, "It," though I never did it to my friend's face, or her sister's, for that matter. I didn't see her as either man or woman, but as some mysterious third creature who was neither gender.
I admit I still don't understand trans people, but I no longer react with that negative attitude. I don't have the slightest understanding of how a person identifies as something other than what they were born with. as I said on Grafiti, I have another acquaintance who made the switch very recently, also from male to female. It still confuses me, but at this point, I just accept that this is her choice, and interact with her as the gender she is now. It's difficult sometimes, when I've spoken with her on the phone, to refer to her as her new name and gender. I sometimes still have to think about it to make sure I'm doing it right. However, when I was told she made the transition, my only response was just kind of a calm, "OK." Very occasionally I see my friend's sister from all those years ago too, and also now have no problem interacting with her as a woman. I can't exactly forget that either of these two people were once men, and the years I knew them as men. Out of respect for who they have chosen to become, though, I treat them as their current gender, use their current names. Whatever my feelings, they deserve to be treated with the same respect I'd give anyone else, because whatever gender they identify as, they're still people.
Personally, I have little experience with trans people. That said, I have a lot of experience with self-analysis. I think a lot, and while thinking is no perfect substitute for doing, it can sometimes be fairly accurate.
I think in my case, it is. Jake, as far as I'm concerned, you're just a person. Please don't take that badly. If I talked to you, the fact that you were once a woman and are now a man would be one of many facts about you that I came to know. It wouldn't bother me, upset me or make me want to judge you.
I definitely don't get it, but I've learned a long time ago that I don't have to get it. I don't know how Syrian refugees feel, but I can still feel sympathy for them. Conversely, there are people with only living siblings who've never lost a younger brother or sister, and that's something I know quite well because my brother died almost ten years ago. Same deal, basically. We don't have to get it. We can try, but if we fall short, I think it's imperative only that we make up the distance in either understanding or, at the very very least, an open mind. I'm a man who's always felt like a man and who's had no desire to be a woman. You were a woman who wasn't happy being female. Really, the most important part for me is that this is right for you and doesn't do you any harm. Since it appears to be going well, I wish you the best of luck.
Now, as for the question of attraction, that's kind of a tricky one. I'm heterosexual but I have absolutely no problem with people who aren't. They don't gross me out or make me squirm. It's just not for me personally...I guess I just wasn't built that way.
If I was with a woman who wanted to become a man, I confess that if she started having surgery and/or taking hormones to become a man, I might struggle with that. Yes, I do care still of course, and I'm sure I wouldn't just up and bolt...but I am physically attracted to women, which is something that, for me at least, feels kinda hardwired. I might have difficulty with the physical attraction bit, although it might be enhanced by and partially compensated for by the fact that we have history together. I don't honestly know how I'd react right down to the last step because I've never been in that situation. It'd be tough though, I can say that. This is all very physical, by the way; my emotional feelings wouldn't change much, I shouldn't think. After all it's still the same person I knew before, and we still have the same history. The differences are skin-deep, as they say. I wouldn't suddenly not like the person, or not want to talk to him, or anything like that.
Hope this helps answer some of your questions. Welcome to the site, BTW.
Hey, I responded to you on graffiti but I'll copy and expand on it a bit here.
I think it partially depends on your orientation really, and also how open you are. Most pan people are pretty chill about dating someone who is trans, and also people who are non binary. But I also know a lot of straight and bi people who would also date and have sex with someone who was trans as well. I'm cis and straight, though I question assigning myself that label to be honest...and I just don't know. I haven't been atracted to a trans person before, but then the only people I know are trans women, not men, so this makes sense. I can't say no until I really have the chance to experience it I think.
If I met someone, and fell in love with them, then it wouldn't matter. I don't know if I will, because like I said I only know trans women, but I'm open to the possibility.
Cody you're incorrect on one account, and if you are ever a manager you will see things as I describe here. Sure, trans people are people, but with a one in twelve chance of being killed, and an extremely high rate of being vandalized etc. you're likely to adopt a protective stance towards any of them in your circle that you could be called responsible for.
I was unaware of the term "stealth" only what a couple British lawyers in the 90s had written about, that the trans people weren't really a protected class, because they see themselves as the gender they're transitioned to, not as trans, and so ascribing certain protection can be difficult, because you won't know.
Now as to the sex thing, I'm not attracted to a voice that sounds like a man's voice, and there's nothing I can do about that. Modern PC stuff and Fattitude stuff be damned, there's nothing you can do about what you are and aren't attracted to.
It does become difficult with the pronouns thing only because it's reflexive to respond to a voice of one kind in one way with one set of pronouns etc vs. another kind. I'm not sure that so-called passing is a misogyny thing like people claim, it's a matter of fitting in. I was the only white at a bar more often than not when I was in Japan. If I wanted to pass for Canadian, for instance, instead of rowdy American, there were steps I could take to hopefully pass. I wouldn't call the Japanese racist for that either.
In my experience just as a average middle-age cis straight white, I'd say it's easier for me to not be confused with a trans man than a trans woman.
It's certainly a complicated issue.
On the disclosure thing? I've heard people say it's supposedly phobic to want a trans person to disclose before intimate contact. I don't think that's right: disclosure is a good idea no matter who you are. That's just human trust.
But in the end, I don't think people are more enlightend or better humans because they are attracted to more kinds of people, more genders, etc. In fact I'd caution anyone getting caught up into that: 25 to 30 years ago, people did the race trender thing, get a black or an Asian to show how progressive you are. That sort of shit doesn't end well. It never does. And the people I feel sorry for with the current trends is the non cis peple, for lack of a better term. Because they're going to get caught in the crossfire, and when this multi poly pan demi situation is no longer a new thing, hey're likely to get tossed like used gum, and that's terribly sad, IMHO.
There will come a time, it's probably not too far off, when the Leftist trend setters will say you have trans privilege. I hope I'm wrong, but I've never been wrong on this before.
I may not be physically attracted to someone with a man's voice and other characteristics, but gods damn it, trendy people, consider the humans here before these trans peple get thrown out like used garbage, just like what happens to every single other group. The only bright spot in my book is the few trans folk I know who are old enough and sharp enough to realize this issue, and not get taken in. Jumping fucking Jesus it kind of makes me sick to think about. All I can say is, whoever and whatever you're attracted to for real, not just for trends or getting a diversity holy card of some kind, have a human heart for the real humans, trans and all the other gender words I probably would mistype.
Now that they've got gay marriage, there's already Leftist movement against gay men referring to them as misogynistic. Didn't take them long, did it? I admit I like the idea of trans people who are individualistic, carry guns and know how to survive, because at least they'll stay alive and pull through this shit.
Okay oddly, we’ve been talking, so I know a bit more other than this topic.
What do you feel about disclosure?
Right now your cool, because you are with your girlfriend, but what if you change for whatever reason?
You are physically female even without your breast once you’ve removed your clothes, but women who aren’t aware will think of you as male.
I’m only referring to the intimate part. Socially, I’d say you never need to say. It’s not anyone’s business that isn’t going to be intimate with you, but the other question stands.
If I were bisexual, I could see myself more being with a woman that once was a man, but as I am now, I’d want to be told before I learned it when I touched her, or got close enough to smell her if she were hiding her scent.
I couldn’t imagine I’d not suspect even after a hand shake, but maybe this is possible.
I tend to start a relationship from the other end, the attraction sexually, and the personality. The love doesn’t come to me for a while, so I couldn’t imagine falling in love with someone that had switched, if that makes sense?
I’m easy going, so I’d not be upset if someone didn’t tell me until things got to the point of intimacy, but they’d have to accept the rejection, because it be off.
Not the friendship, but the rest.
I’d still treat her as female.
I'm bisexual. I have been with straight guys and bisexual girls but never a female who wanted to be male or the other way around. I know an author who was female named Heather Brewer now a male named Zac Brewer.
Sure, but what do you think about it?
I admit I've never known someone before they transitioned, as many seem to now. The people I've met were largely through it and living life on the other side.
@SisterDawn:
I admire your honesty in how you responded to your friend's sister. I understand that this reaction can be common among people who don't know anything about the issue. I also admire the fact that you can respect the choices of trans people now. I definitely don't think there is anything wrong with the way you respond to trans people now.
@Shepherdwolf:
I feel like just viewing trans people as people is the best reaction you can have. I don't think it should matter. Often times people make way bigger a deal of it than it deserves. I appreciate your open-mindedness. It's true that all that is necessary is to have compassion and be happy for people.
@Scarlett:
I agree, if you fall in love with someone it just doesn't matter. For some people (like my partner, for example,) genitals just don't make the man. I'm fine with the fact that I'll never be attractive to women (or men) whose priority it is to be with a man with a naturally born penis. I will never have one, thus we wouldn't be a good match. But really, love and connection sometimes compensates for an unlikely sex life.
@Leo,
Surprisingly (for my demographic,) I'm not much for political correctness. I totally get not being attracted to male voices. I'm not either. It's a fact that many trans women (male to female) don't have female sounding voices because testosterone is a bitch. It stretches the vocal chords during puberty and they don't shrink back. Trans women can do voice training or even vocal chord surgeries. I've met such trans women, and they sound amazing. Seriously no difference between their voice and cis women's. Of course not everyone gets that result, but it can be pretty attractive.
Ultimately you are attracted to whoever the hell you're attracted to, but it couldn't hurt being open-minded. After all, many sighted people if asked would probably say that they'd never have sex or date a blind person because they just don't understand anything about blindness. They may believe that we are totally dependent on others. This is an example of something my ex-girlfriend's sister said to her. She said that I would never be able to move out of my parents' house and would never be able to get a job. This just shows the extent of the ignorance that can be circulated about issues that some just don't understand.
As for the rest of it, I agree it should not be just a fashionable thing to date a trans person, as it shouldn't be fashionable to be gay or date a black person. You and I could probably have interesting conversations regarding politics and neo-progressivism and the like, if you were interested.
@Forereel:
Completely understandible. I believe that for myself, disclosure would be necessary if I were even getting ready to date someone, let alone become intimate with them. I would never presume to tell other trans people what they should do regarding disclosure, because I don't think it should be a rule that all trans people need to follow. After all, as I see, we're not deceiving anyone by simply stating we are the gender we identify as. I am a man. Period. I am not a woman or anything else, I am a man, dick or no dick. This is not a lie, and I don't owe anyone the disclosure of what my genitals look like.
However, yes, once it became relevent, I'd tell the person. If someone's expecting me to have a dick, they should be aware of the fact that I have a dick that is not connected to my body. :P
Jake
Smile.
You've got an advantage there. You can ask what style they'd like. Lol
Jake I admire your honesty. I also have heard a couple of trans women who sounded just like women, and I have no idea what would happen in that situation. I personally can't do dick, as I know some Lesbians can't either.
But you know, you and I probably could have some interesting conversations. I'm a bit surprised there aren't more trans folk among the non-statist nonconforming crowd. Seems like out here many of them are attached to the Leftist Daddy State, perhaps as protection against the Rightist Daddy State.
I know of one trans woman who is part of a counter-narrative to 3rd wave feminist dogma, started out like many of us as counter narrative to Creationist dogma and the inevitable happen since the two ideologies are mere inverses of one another.
I imagine we could have some interesting conversations. Some of the more interesting ones I've had have come from people who are probably your age, brought up under neo-progressivism, and trying to escape just as some try to escape the Bible Belt Baptists. Rogue is rogue, I respect anyone who is one.
@Forereel, I'm laughing. It's the classic trans guy joke: our sexual partners will never be disappointed with us, we can just go buy the dick they prefer. :)
@Leo,
We can chat any time you like. You might be surprised how independent I am as far as ideology is concerned. I'm a political independent, an atheist and a rationalist. I don't put up with dogma of any kind without evidence, which includes political and religious dogma.
I agree that neo progressivism can look alarmingly like evangelical extremism. I'm trying to escape radicalism in all forms I suppose. I don't view myself as especially oppressed or beaten down by society for being either blind or trans. I think I'm disadvantaged in certain ways, but ultimately it's my responsability to do what I'm doing now. That is, educating others about myself and my identity so they can better understand issues dealing with the trans community. Similarly, I take time to educate some sighted people who don't understand my life as a blind person, thus they will better understand what blindness is and how to (or not to) treat blind people to be respectful. It's not about oppression, privilege or power. It's about being a minority and trying to make the majority understand.
Jake
On an educational basis, this topic has given me information I didn’t have.
I never had an issue with trans people socially, that I didn’t have to adjust.
I learned among other things, that all trans persons don’t change surgically, but feel they are.
You oddly, don’t feel as if you are a man trapped in a female body right? I’d always read that this was the case.
No matter how much education I have, I not be interested in a man that now was female no matter how altered he was. On the other hand, if a bisexual woman was interested, but was mainly male without the complete surgery, she’d still be acceptable to me as a woman, or intimate partner.
I’m happy everyone isn’t like me, and trans people are able to find mates and live complete lives as the gender of their choice.
This bisexual would be a man. Regardless of the fact they hadn't had surgery to make themselves have male genitals.
I get your point, but you are misusing pronouns a lot here.
Correct to them.
But, if they wanted to have sex with me, I could more less do that, because for me, they'll still be female.
I'd not assume I could change them, or whatever, but if I liked them, it could work.
I'd not be approaching them, they'd have to make me know they were interested, and we'd need to get along.
@Forereel, I'm really glad you learned something from this topic. It's exactly why I decided to put it up. :)
You are correct that I don't feel like a man trapped in a woman's body. This is the narrative which seems to be the easiest for most people to grasp when casually discussing the issue, but usually it's much more complicated than that. I feel perfectly okay with my body exactly the way it is, and wouldn't feel the need to change anything at all if society could see me as a man the way I am. Since this is not possible, though, I feel better altering my outward appearance to make it more clear to those who I encounter in the world that I am a man and not a woman.
Also, Scarlett is correct; trans men are men and trans women are women, whether or not they get hormone treatments, surgical procedures, or anything else. It's up to them how they identify. I do understand that you may not be attracted to someone who has a penis, has a male sounding voice, smells male, ETC.
A trans man would not like having a sexual relationship with someone who viewed them as a female due to their genitals. Therefore, the only people who trans people generally enjoy being with are those who don't gender genitals as much.
Jake
That's understandable.
I'm genuinely trying to make sure I'm reading this right. I'm not trying to be sarcastic or start debate or anything. Jake, if I read you right, are you saying that society should recognize someone as male or female simply based on what they choose to identify as, and that the physical body has nothing to do with it? So that whether a person alters themselves in any way, if they have all the body and voice and whatever of a man but say they're a woman, or vice versa, society just needs to take them as the gender they claim?
If that's the case, why all the fervor a few months ago over what I believe was a white girl who identified as black? If we go by this logic, if she wanted to identify as black, regardless of skin color, that should be accepted. Or if someone black wanted to identify as white...Holy shit, would that start an outcry regarding race. I guess, though I'm not trying to start debate, my question becomes, where does this logic begin and end? Again, not trying to be a jerk, just a bit confused here.
I think it's because, and I may be wrong here, sex and gender are different. But in our society we've been told that they are the same.
There are other cultures where more than 2 genders is a widely accepted concept, it's not just male or female. and yet, those people obviously fall into 1 of 2 sexes.
Whereas race is more set in stone. You are a certain race because of genetics and whatnot.
For example, someone might be female in sex, but male in gender. It depends if you see them as separate or not. To me, sex is the biology, gender is how the person identifies, their characteristics etc.
Jake might be a better person to answer this, I'm just going on what I know.
I agree with sister Dawn.
For that reason is why I stated my feelings about a man that has a natural female body still being acceptable to me if they wanted to be as a mate.
For this reason is why I think trans people go through operations to complete themselves.
A guy like me just can't say, hey people, I'm now a woman, so you must accept me as such, and think of me as such.
I could get my close friends and family maybe to agree on the surface, but I doubt they'd do so when I walk in the room and they hear and see me.
I can accept someone that has had the changes as far as I can see as what they want to be socially, but not intimately as well.
I'm not saying you have to be atracted to someone at all. There's lots of people I'm not atracted to for all kinds of reasons.
But what I am uncomfortable with is this whole social vs intimate distinction many of us are making.
So you are willing to treat a trans man as a man socially, but view them as a female in the bedroom. Again, not saying you have to be atracted to them, it just concerns me a little that it seems like people are only accepting someones transition when it suits them.
Trans people don't have to get gender reassignment surgery. Sure, you don't have to date them either. But whether you or I or anybody likes it or not, if someone you view as female says they want to be treated like a man we all should do that, unless we want to be massive jerks.
Ah, I see your point.
Here's the thing though. If that man that wanted to be treated as a man, but had a female body was interesting enough to me to even want to be with him in the bedroom, he'd probably have to have some aspects that were female other then his body.
Here's what I don't know.
When I'm in the bed room with a body that smells, tastes, feels, and such like a female how I could treat that person like a man.
The natural things that make up females is why I like them sexually, and why I only like males as friends.
I'm not sure I understand how to treat a man in the bedroom. I have no concept of the difference of treatment in a sexual partner. This I don't know about.
A woman that wishes to be dom with me can be, or passive. I'm not sure how it is you treat a woman like a woman as related to sex.
Yeah, that makes sense. I haven't dated anyone who is trans, so can't really comment on that one.
I was more referring to not misgendering them, recognising that you are dating a man, even if they have female genitals.
If you were born a man, you will always and forever be a man; vice versa if you were born female.
I got you.
I can't reduce a man or a woman to only genitals though. If that were true for me, I'd have no problems being with a natural man that had had a full operation.
He'd have the vagina, and breast, right?
I'd really love a description of how to treat a man in the bed room.
Does it boil down to passive aggressive?
@SisterDawn:
There's one big difference between being transgender and being trans-racial/trans-ethnic (or whatever they're calling themselves.) I don't agree with that movement, as it is, by the way. Nor do I agree with trans-ableism. I think trans-racialism makes a mockery of other races, and trans-ableism makes a mockery of actual disabled people. I'll tell you why:
Race really is a social construct. It's a powerful social construct, mind you, but it's not associated with any hardwired differences. For example, there is no difference in the way white people relate to the world VS. the way that black people relate to the world, except for the ways in which society dictates we relate differently. There is no biological difference. Race was created by human beings. Higherarchies based on nationalism, religion, culture, ETC. started what is now race.
Similarly, ability does not dictate your hardwired drives and relations to the world, except for those ways in which society dictates you relate differently. For example, we as blind people are not any different from our sighted counterparts as far as our emotions, our sexualities, our personalities, our interests, and our religious/political/ideological worldviews. We are only different because we can't do some things they can, and society is designed in such a way that we must interact with the world differently than they do.
Basically, whether you are black or white, whether you are blind or sighted, you are human and you are basically hardwired alike.
Now, gender.
Gender is vastly different from race or ability. Gender is not socially constructed. You recognize your gender identity from a very young age, independent of other factors. Studies have shown that even infants relate to the world in gendered ways, for instance, baby girls tend to react more readily to facial expressions than baby boys. Children have gendered ways of interacting with others, playing, and learning preferences. Lots of the things that we do now as adults are based in a biological hardwiring. The male brain is different than the female brain in small but very significant ways.
Thus, gender is actually something that is observibly dymorphic. There's no difference between a white identity and a black identity at birth. All babies, whether black, white, Asian, Hispanic or Native American, are the same. Male children and female children, however, are different in their identities, expressions and interactions from an extremely young age.
When I was young, I identified as a male. Pure and simple. I was a boy, and I didn't care what anyone said to the contrary. I exhibited conventionally boyish behaviors since before I could speak. You, I imagine, expressed your gender identity as a girl without help from anyone else, because your mental gender happened to match your biological sex.
This is most of the population. These people are called cisgender, "cis" meaning "the same."
I'm sorry, that was very long-winded, and thank you so much for staying with me if you have.
Long story short: gender identity and sex are different. If you were born male, raised male, and went through a puberty which flooded your body with testosterone and cursed you with a rumbling voice, large tall frame, broad brow, huge hands and feet, and massive muscularity, you will probably identify as male and live your life totally unhindered. But what if you don't? What if you genuinely identify as a female, possess a demonstratively female brain, and yet, no one will ever treat you as such? Everyone calls you Sir despite your wishes that they don't, everyone calls you he and him despite how bad it hurts you, and no one will date you as the woman you are inside all because of the physical characteristics you possess that you can never change?
This is real life. This is heavy shit that people actually deal with.
I don't know if you are aware, but the attempted suicide rate among transgender people is 41%. Compared to the approximately 1% of the general population, that's a big deal. And it's in large part due to the fact that people don't think they should be made to call them by their prefered name and pronouns. It's because people tell them that due to factors entirely out of their control, they are not a woman or man because they don't meet the standard.
So what if I'm shorter than average? So what if I have a vagina? And so what if I was named a female name at birth? I'm lucky in that I pass as male very successfully. But that is because I'm willing to take a weekly dose of testosterone injections to keep up my appearance, and because I'm willing to undergo serious surgical procedures. My trans sisters like the hypathetical person I described above don't always have such easy and convenient options. No matter how long she is on female hormones, no matter how many feminizing procedures she pays thousands of dollars to undergo, no matter how much hell she puts herself through to be socially recognized as a woman, some people will never treat her the way she wants to be treated. And that fucking hurts.
It's all well and good to consider how this might affect you and the rest of cisgender society by asking "do I really have to call someone Ma'am, even if they don't look like my idea of a woman?" But why not ask yourself (and everyone else) "why is it such a big deal to treat someone the way they want to be treated? Why can't I just except that that is what makes them happy?"
Because frankly, it's not about everyone else. It's about the trans person involved. That's why it's an issue. Because there's still people like poster 45. Because there's still people who contribute to disrespect of someone's feelings and identity because it make them feel uncomfortable. Why are we respecting people's feelings of discomfort more than we're respecting people's feelings that they are a certain gender?
Though this is in the dating and relationships category, and I totally respect anyone who says that they would not be interested in dating or having sex with a trans person for various technical reasons, this is a much bigger, all-encompassing issue.
Jake
Okay, heavy shit out of the way.
@Forereel:
I'll address the thing that is easiest to address first.
If you were to come out and say that you were female, you wouldn't mean it. It's like what I said earlier about people who decide to transition to be more attractive to the same sex, or to better fit in a specific relationship with a specific person. It wouldn't work because you don't actually identify as the opposite sex.
Like I said in my last post, when you are transgender, you damn well know you are transgender. Usually (but not always by any means,) trans people at least have an inkling that they belong in the opposite gender role from a very young age. The reason why I say that this is not applicable to all people is because I know several trans people who didn't really figure it out until adulthood. That doesn't make them any less trans, it just makes them different.
Gender is in the brain. Most brains are gendered in one way or another, and it affects how you identify and how you relate to the world. I, for instance, identified as a boy since the age of 4 or so. I knew nothing about transgender shit, I knew nothing about gender, sex, identity or any of this shit I'm talking about now. I just knew that being in a dress felt bad, I knew that being called she and her felt horrible, ETC.
You, I assume, never had these feelings. You are among the majority then. Gender is linked with biological sex for a reason; sex tends to be a good indicator of your later gender identity. But it's not always that way. I'm living proof of this, and there are countless other examples throughout history.
As for the other stuff, could you clarify a bit about your questions regarding treating men and women differently in bed? I'm not totally sure what it is you're asking here.
Also, it's generally best to call people by the pronouns (I.E. he or she) corresponding with their gender identity, not their physical sex. So trans women (male to female) are she, not he, even if they still possess a penis.
Thanks man,
Jake
@Scarlett,
You are awesome. You are a great ally and I totally appreciate your support in trans related stuff. :)
Thanks everyone,
Jake
I'll be back because I've got much to address now.
Really interesting.
Some more heavy shit.
Vere with me. I’m going to try to explain what I’m interested in knowing, and understanding about your thoughts.
If you say gender, or if a person has a penis or not shouldn’t matter in being male or female, why are you going through such lengths to change yourself accept your vagina?
If your genitals don’t matter, why do trans people change at all?
How can you say you knew you were male from before you could talk?
If you are happy with your body, why don’t you leave it alone, and be a man?
Don’t take shots, wear whatever type clothes you want to wear. Your hair style can be anything you want it to be too.
Enjoy sex with the girl or boy type, and be the dominate side of the relationship.
I understand perfectly what society says a male, or a female should be. I also know what society thinks of as a male or female.
If we erase this concept, we are left with what nature makes a male or female, and we give that a label.
At birth, we are given a type, but we are not given any mental concept of what that type should act like.
Seems to me we could raise two children and let nature dictate the personality, mood, sex drive, and if they are emotionally and physically attracted to what type.
Myself, know one told me I was supposed to be interested in the opposite type, it just happened to me it seems.
The other type visually, auditory, scent, and tactual has a physical and emotional impact on me I don’t control.
There are lots to me that make up my type and lots to the other that make up that type that isn’t dictated by society.
When I hear a baby cry, it doesn’t make my nipples start to swell, and create milk. I don’t even have a drive to have a baby as I understand some women do strongly.
But I could easily be called a woman by your standards, why not?
My body and all that make me male shouldn’t matter, but they do profoundly.
Saying all that, you are trying to get all I have naturally. Why, if it shouldn’t matter?
If you left yourself alone, soon you will be your natural type, minus the clothing, hair style, and personality.
Because you are bisexual, you might say to me, I’d like to have sex with you.
If we were compatible on the things out of bed, I’d be emotionally, and physically moved, even though you label yourself a man.
When we were having sex, how do I treat you like a man?
That is the part I’m totally confused on.
When I have sex with a partner, I treat that partner like a person I’m having sex with. I don’t give that person a label, or role to play.
I hope all this made sense.
I’m not saying I don’t understand your mental place. What doesn’t make sense to me is how you can expect everyone to treat you as a whole man when you aren’t, but you are doing everything you feel comfortable with to be what society dictates you should be?
In history rulers and people in power would remove the male types genitals they could leave them at home to protect the women type.
These men would be units, but still had all the rest nature gave them.
The rulers were sure that they’d not be having sex with their women penetration wise.
They still wanted them to be aggressive fighters though.
I have more, but do this for me first.
Cool, let's see.
This is extremely complicated mind you, and I don't know everything. I can only answer for myself to the best of my knowledge and experience, and some stuff I just don't have an answer for.
1. If you say gender, or if a person has a penis or not shouldn’t matter in being male or female, why are you going through such lengths to change yourself accept your vagina?
---
I'm going through these lengths because it's what makes me feel better about myself. I really do come from more of a biological standpoint as far as gender and sex is concerned, and I believe that something in my brain craves testosterone. More than that though, I would never be accepted as a male in general society if I did not make myself more visibly male. It would be nice not to give a fuck what other people thought of me and just go through life knowing who I am, and that works for some trans people. It doesn't work for me.
Occasionally I still get called Ma'am. Perhaps it's my height or small stature. I can't see what else it would be anymore. I used to get called Ma'am a lot more often though, and my family still almost always refers to me as "she." They are supportive of me, but they need time to adjust and I understand that.
Anyway, these things make me feel physically ill. This is refered to as dysphoria. It's when trans people don't feel good in their own skin. That's what being perceived as a female does to me. I can't leave my house if I don't feel like I pass well enough. It's horrible.
So that's partially why I do it. But like I said, testosterone has made me feel objectively way better about myself. I feel more balanced and calm, not so anxious and yucky all the time.
I am working on getting my breasts removed soon, as I said, and this is something I want done because (A) I don't want to have to bind my chest forever. It's uncomfortable and unhealthy in the long run. (B) I've never liked them. I don't know if it's an innate dislike of having breasts as a man, or if it's entirely socially motivated. All I know is that I tried to slice them off with a butter knife when they first started coming in.
---
2. If your genitals don’t matter, why do trans people change at all?
---
See above. It could be any of all of these reasons, or none, or something else. I can't speak for all trans people who choose to get some kind of genital reassignment surgery, but it probably has something to do with how they feel in their own skin. Some people just want a penis/vagina, and it has nothing to do with society. Some people are socially driven. Everyone has a different reason. This is very philosophical though, and I think you'd agree with me when I say that it shouldn't really matter why or why not a trans person wants to get something done to themselves, as long as they're happy.
---
3. How can you say you knew you were male from before you could talk?
---
My family reports that I was always very boyish and didn't like my long hair. I would throw lots of fits related to the clothing I wore. Given this could be comparable to the behavior of a tomboy, but most tomboys do not grow up to be trans, and here I am. :)
Once I could talk I began demanding that my mom rename me a boy's name, and start dressing me differently. I wanted a short haircut and I wanted to be called he and him.
---
4. If you are happy with your body, why don’t you leave it alone, and be a man?
Don’t take shots, wear whatever type clothes you want to wear. Your hair style can be anything you want it to be too.
Enjoy sex with the girl or boy type, and be the dominate side of the relationship.
---
I think I already hit upon these things earlier, but I'll reiterate that I probably would leave some parts of myself alone if I could still be read and treated as male. For example, I probably would not bind my breasts. I would still want to get them removed eventually, but if I could go around without binding and still be gendered correctly, I would. Binding is not fun.
I would still wear my hair short. I would still dress the way I do. I would still take testosterone because I hated my voice and body structure before it. I might polish my nails just because that's cool, and I don't do it now because I'd rather not risk being misgendered.
---
As for some of the other stuff:
I agree, there are many differences between males and females. Some are innate and biological, some are learned and social. For instance, men are naturally (on average) more stoic than women, and women (on average) are more emotionally expressive. I have exhibited these masculine traits since I was very young. An example of gendered social norms include women being more colorful and pretty than men. Men, as dictated by society, generally dress in more neutral colors, wear less jewelry, ETC. Women wear makeup, jewelry, colorful clothing, more articles of clothing and more accessories. This is not biological except for the fact that it stems from a need to exaggerate our genders to attract sex partners.
At birth, you're correct, we are given a gender label based entirely on our genitalia. We are not told explicitly what it means to fit that gender label when we're born, however, as I mentioned before, we exhibit gendered behaviors anyway. Like I said, gender is in the brain. They've looked at trans brains before, studying them for qualities that indicate gender. They correspond with their gender identity.
If we left people alone and just let them choose their gender, and thus their behaviors and sexual orientation, most would identify with their biological sex. For instance, if you were born with a vulva, you would most likely identify as a female. Likewise, most would be sexually attracted to the opposite sex. For example, if you were born with a penis, you would most likely be attracted to females. This is common sense; these practices further the species. Gay people don't produce children, and most trans people don't either. Essentially, I am abnormal. I'm not productive for furthering the human race. I'm disposable, to put it bluntly, and if mother nature still reigned I would be killed.
But I do exist, whether I'm abnormal or not. I have a male brain and a female body. That's unfortunate, and the way I see it, all I'm doing is making some physical adjustments to my body to make it more appealing to myself.
I have more, and it's continued onto the next post.
Jake
@Forereel again:
You say that you needed no prodding to decide you were male and heterosexual. Hell, you didn't even decide it. That's great. It's great that you are socially, psychologically, physically and biologically male, and that you are attracted to women. I totally get you.
Thus, I am not saying that you could be a woman. I would never tell you that. I would never presume to understand your gender identity, first of all. But mostly, I don't believe, as I've expressed above, that there is no difference between men and women. There are differences, and very important ones. We are in total agreement on that.
All I'm saying is that gender identity is in the brain. Biological sex is in the body. Gender is how you somehow just know innately that you are a man, not a woman. Biological sex is the fact that you have a penis, testicles, and a Y chromosome.
Some people's gender identity and biological sex do not match. I was born with a vulva, ovaries, a uterus, and XX chromosomes. But I am a man. I am. If I left it alone (as I have done before,) I would be miserable. Because I am a man, and if I did not live my life fully and openly as a man, it would create cognitive dissonance of the sort that would lead me to deep depression and insanity. I know this because I experienced trying to live as a woman before. It did not work, and no amount of trying to convince myself that I was born with a vagina, therefore I was a woman, would make me feel any better.
How to treat me individually as a man? I have no idea. I'm as clueless as you are about what it means to treat anyone as a man or woman, because it depends on the people. I won't talk to you in specifics about how I like to have sex, so otherwise I'm not sure how to answer the question. If this were to happen between you and I, we'd have to discuss it and talk it through. But since you are only attracted to women, I would not want to be in a sexual relationship with you.
I expect that people treat me with respect, whether I have a penis or not.
Answer me this: would you treat a man who you learned had lost is penis and/or testicles in a war like less than a man? Would he become a woman in your mind? What if you found out that a female friend of yours was steril? Does this mean she is no longer a woman?
When I say that I expect that people treat me with respect, that's what I mean. I acknowledge that I don't have a penis, and I acknowledge that I was born female. I acknowledge that I was socialized female and that I could not impregnate a woman. I still, after admitting these things, expect people to treat me like a man, because I am a man. You'll have to take my word for it I'm afraid.
I will say this: men don't want to be women. Women don't want to be men. If you are, as you say, a man who identifies as a man, I bet you have no inclination whatsoever to begin dressing like a woman, or living your life like a woman. I'd be willing to bet that none of the women I've spoken to on this topic feel the urge to dress like and live life as a male. That's because you are not trans. Thus, if you suspect that someone is just a man dressing like a woman for shits and giggles, ask yourself if you would do the same. This doesn't happen.
No, men don't want to be women. Women want to be women, whether they were born physically male or female. Likewise, men are the ones who want to be men, whether or not they were born with a penis.
Thanks, and I hope this makes sense.
Jake
Some, yes.
I'd not treat a man that lost his penis in say a war like a woman, but he'd also not be insisting he was, and acting such. He'd still be male.
Male and female as far as I see it, are way more then the body.
You said you didn't feel as you were trapped in a woman's body, but you actually do.
You also don't really like your female body, because of the things you stated, not me.
I only asked about treating you are a woman in bed, because you stated you didn't like being treated as such when having sex.
I'm honestly not sure how sexually you treat a woman specificly was why I asked about it.
This is all interesting.
The comparison I was trying to make with the man who lost his penis in a war was to me, not to a trans woman. So like a man who lost his penis in a war, I do not have a penis. Yet I am still a man. As you would treat that man as a man, I ask that people treat me as a man, despite my not having a penis. You see? Because most people don't even know I don't have a penis upon meeting me, and most never will. They treat me as a man because that's how I present. However, if someone were to learn that I was trans, that should not change how they treat me. I'm still a man, whether or not I have a penis.
I also insist that I am not a man trapped in a woman's body. It's hard to explain, but my body is my body. I don't view it as a woman's body, though the rest of society would label it as such. I view my body as just fine, and I'm male whether or not I take hormones, get my breasts removed, get genital surgery, ETC. I choose to do these things because (A) they make me feel better just innately, and (B) they help the rest of the people around me perceive me as a male and treat me as such.
Jake
Yes, to me, body doesn't dictate gender. Like, Jake isn't a male in a female body, because his body is his body. You could say he has female sex organs, and that would be correct. But if, as I do, you believe sex and gender are separate then that is an irelivency.
Yes, most of the population are cisgender, our sex organs and gender match up. But just because someone's doesn't, that shouldn't mean they are trapped.
If it was a case of being trapped, what about people who are non-binary? Genderqueer? That argument could never make sense in those cases because there are far more than 2 genders, and only 2 complete sex's.
I am speaking as someone who is cis though. I am certainly far from an authority on this. So if someone trans says my observations here are wrong then please go with what they say, rather than what I'm saying.
Your thoughts are interesting, and make up the discussion.
@Scarlett, couldn't have said it better myself. I'm male with female sex organs and female chromosomes. But I'm still a man, and I don't tolerate being treated otherwise because for cisgender people, it would be outright inappropriate and rude to ask someone what their genitals look like before deciding how to treat them. It's outright inappropriate and rude for someone to do that to me as well.
As far as the non-binary discussion, it's a whole other enormous subject that I, like you, have no real authority on. It's fascinating nonetheless.
Jake
hi, am born Intersexed have been with more than one transgendered person,
mostly male too female though, and well to me they are what they wanna be
, body might say something else but if you love a person enough you don't
think about such things really, you find ways that work for you and your
partner.
That is just the way it is for me, , respect for others who have a different
view.
Some can stand it others can't. tough shit, that is just how it is.
Might help i am bisexual, not sure.
Sandi
Okay. Sandi, let me see if I understood you correctly.
You had sex with a male that had switched to a female.
You are female.
Now, this confuses me even more. The question in my mind, is, aren't the now females wanting to be female, and in that case wanting the complete picture?
I do remember oddly is bisexual, but he now prefers women and seems unlikely to be interested in sex with another man due to this treatment thing I've not been able to get a complete answer on.
How often are trans people also totally bisexual?
If most of them now are bisexual, it seem they still have some mental components, or idenity issues possibly?
Most lesbian women aren't interested in men at all, and they don't wish to be men either.
They are totally female in every sense, just they prefer women as sex and life partners.
Same with totally gay men. They aren't interested in women at all.
So, you see why I'm asking this question.
I'd agree that seeing your genitals before accepting you as a man isn't good, but I'd have a problem with someone that didn't reveal she was trans before I was in bed with her.
At that point I'd know.
We'd not even have to be in bed, if you understand, just start to be intimate.
Until I could touch her, she might be able to have me thinking she's always been female.
I don't fall in love, even with natural females until after we've been intimate in some fashion.
It doesn't have to be complete sex, but we'd touch, kiss, and such things.
I'm also not restrained by any religious, or other things, so I expect complete sex in a relationship that is suppose to be going to the loving part.
Sure, I could really like someone lots,but that isn't love.
I did say I start this from the other end, so maybe I'm odd in that respect.
there is nothing confusing in it, got chromosomes from both sexes. Sure i had
sex with bubba after all, was lesbian before that actually ,to be honest i ma
not sure what i would go for today fem or male, in the next relationship, it
might depend alot on the person. That is another story though.
basically i see people as persons male female, same shit really when it
comes down to it we orgasm the same so it is not a huge problem to me .
I'm not confused by your actions, but the males that went to all the trouble to change to females still wanting sex with females.
I can understand how some might be bisexual, but wonder how many are after the change?
Um, but...being bisexual and being trans has nothing to do with each other.
You could be cisgender and bisexual. Or trans and bisexual. The fact that you transition has nothing to do with your sexual orientation in that respect.
I understand that, however, it is my understanding that trans want to be the other sex completely, or most do.
If we said that everyone that was a trans person, was also bisexual, I'd understand it.
If we say that trans people wish to change to the other sex completely, that to me means becoming a man or a woman.
Most men and women are not bisexual. They are straight, or not and they don't wish to change the sex they are.
That is what I want to learn.
How many trans are bisexual, and if this is a large amount, or a small amount of the population.
first too 4real.
i am not sure how too answer that, as a matter of fact Scarlett does a pretty
good job of it, take me for example i like both, males can give me something
females can't and the other way around too. the transition have nothing at all
to do with your sexuality.
you could say you undergo different operations to feel as much as you as you
possible can, it is different for each person.
we are all different , we all do different things too survive.
As charming says it is not uncommon to hear about another person who have
out of sadness taken his or her life.
you ask if the person would change sexuality after an operation, why should
they? the operation don't change the head. maybe it happens or not , again it
is up to the individual person.
I know what i like in being with a man and with a female, i like both.
Therefore i would be classed as a bisexual.
hopes it makes just a little bit of sense:)
I don't know if there are any statistics...because it's not really any of my business!
I know a few trans people, some are bi, some are gay, some are straight...some are pan etc etc.
They have the same range of sexual orientations as cisgender people.
@Sandi,
I really appreciate you sharing your perspective here. Thanks for doing so.
@Scarlett, very well put as usual.
@Forereel, I might know a bit more what you're asking now.
I identified as a lesbian when I was female. Thus, like any lesbian, I was only interested in sleeping with and having romantic relationships with women. It's not that I wasn't attracted to men at all, but I did not feel comfortable being with a man as a woman.
Now I identify still as mostly woman-oriented, but I could see myself being with another man depending on the person. This is because I feel comfortable being in a relationship or in a sexual situation with a man as a man.
Therefore my sexuality would probably be more adequately defined as heteroflexible than bisexual, but whatever.
Here's the problem I'm running into in explaining this: it's hard for me to explain why I feel uncomfortable being treated as a woman VS being treated as a man. The former feels wrong, the latter feels right. There's a subtle difference in being in a male-male relationship VS being in a male-female relationship. I don't know what that illusive, implicit thing is. It's not overt, it's not something specific that the other person is doing. It's just feeling like a man in my relationships that is very important to me.
If you need me to elaborate on that, I'm afraid I can't do that. It's too theoretical and to be honest with you, it just doesn't matter. I'm a man without a penis. Like a man without a penis due to injury, I expect to be treated as a man in casual, familial, romantic and sexual relationships. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts.
That looks very differently for different trans people, because no one trans person is the same as the last. Some trans men enjoy penis-in-vagina sex (I.E. being penetrated in their vagina by a male partner.) Others enjoy using a strap-on to penetrate their partner. Others don't like sex at all. And there are so many variations. No matter what a person likes, it makes them no less the gender they say they are.
Similarly, there are just as many straight, gay and bisexual trans people as there are cis people. As the earlier posters have said several times now, sexual orientation and gender identity are two entirely different concepts. One does not effect the other. I believe I was always female-oriented, and kind of attracted to men. My sexuality has not changed, I've just evolved to be more comfortable with exploring it.
My best friend in the world is a trans woman who identifies as mostly lesbian. Like me, she's mostly attracted to women, however does occasionally find herself attracted to men. This makes her no less a woman than if she'd been exclusively attracted to men.
You are conflating sexuality and gender a bit here. If I were a trans man who was only attracted to men, that would not make me less trans or less of a man. You're asking why, if a male decides to transition to become female, doesn't that person just stay male if they're attracted to women. That doesn't make sense. The point of transitioning is not to have sex with a certain gender. The point of transitioning is feeling better about ourselves.
I don't know how better to explain this. Please let me know if you're still confused.
Jake
Good explanation.
I guess for me my sexual identity is tied to my gender directly.
For that reason, if I decided to become a woman, I assume I'd want to take on the full role as a woman.
The interesting thing about me, is I can enjoy a bisexual woman much, but I'm not interested in a bisexual man at all.
I have a lot tied up in body type, smell, voice quality, personality traits that drive me sexually and mentally when relating to the genders.
What do you mean by the role of a woman? Just curious.
And I assume why you wouldn't be interested in bisexual men is because you are straight. Therefor you are interested in women...so of course you wouldn't be interested in bisexual men. Just going by what you've said on this board btw so give me a shout if I assumed your orientation incorrectly.
I call it role, because I have no other term for it.
Here’s is what drives me about women.
First, body type. Women are softer as far as skin texture, and have a specific sent naturally. This is so even if it is covered in perfume.
Not all have large breast, but most will have some growth, and they’ll have slimmer bones.
Some women have hair on the face, but it won’t be cores and thick like a man’s beard. Even a shaved man will grow his hair back after a time and it will be all over, not in spots.
The type of women I like are gentle in demeanor, meaning they won’t be aggressive without provocation. Some guys are rougher.
Women that down want children even tend to gradate to babies more than men, but most are really interested in them.
Most of this is appeal, because a natural woman that doesn’t have female traits is not interesting to me.
Most of what drives me to another person probably is based onall the things I’ve been talking about on this board.
I know some guys with great personalities and I like them, but they don’t turn me on.
Right, so you are a straight guy that is into girls who fit a more traditional gender role. and that's ok, there is literally nothing wrong with that.
But I'm still confused as to why you would associate gender and sexuality. I mean, you can be a girl and any number of sexualities, same for guys. Same for trans people, intersex people etc. Your gender doesn't dictate your sexuality at all.
Also, you simply wouldn't decide to become a woman. People don't choose to do it, they already know the gender they are. Maybe they have male sex organs, but they feel female. Some people are happy like that, and others do want to change their bodies for their own reasons. But it doesn't make them any less of a woman.
Also, as cis people we can't know what we'd do if we were trans, because we aren't.
I will agree I'd not have any idea of what it be like to feel trans.
I do associate my gender with my sexuality however.
I stated above, I understood others don't, like lesbians, or gay men, but myself, I seem to do so.
hi, 4real you really got a way with words LOL
with all the talk about voices smell etc i decided to lay something up,every
voice is different every smell is different from person to person, also
depending on hormones.
http://www8.zippyshare.com/v/ERhLe5le/file.html
once again , thanks for an interesting debate.
Hey guys,
I'm so glad that all of you guys have enjoyed this conversation and I hope that everyone feels like they learned something from it. I also hope that if anyone ever has questions about this whole thing, you can post them here or contact me. I'm always open to discussion.
I'll admit, this topic was a little bit difficult for me at times. I really don't regret coming out to you guys and opening myself up to answer your questions, because it's always my goal to share my experiences and help other people understand them.
I do want to hammer home the fact, however, that I and many other trans, queer and intersex people live with this reality every day, and it's not fun. Conceptualizing, debating and theorizing the issue is good for helping those who don't experience this kind of thing, but I want to definitely make sure it's clear that this stuff really does exist and effect real people. It's a human issue, and it's really complicated and messy.
I loved having this discussion with you all, and I'm really happy that everyone was so respectful and curious about something that is rarely ever understood.
Again, feel free to keep it going if you want. I just wanted to gush and mush for a second. This is one of the only topics of conversation that I have very strong emotions about.
Thanks,
Jake
Ok, sorry Jake don't want to make you the token trans here, but I also am up for some education and I hope I can ask it in a way that makes sense, and you can answer it in a way simple old me can understand things.
People that write or talk about trans / gender / binary this and nonbinary that are always referring to so-called roles, and often very much like my grandfather's generation. *my* grandfather's, I mean, people who were born in the teens and twenties.
For my whole life, I've always known so-called "tomboys" or women who did more physical / mechanical stuff, played sports, etc. Then there's puny men like myself who are nothing to speak about in the studly so-called manly sports department.
Yet those women are clearly women, talk like women, have soft hair like a woman, etc. And people like me are clearly men, I have no metrosexual clothing or any of that complicated stuff, and just go to a plain old barbar that doesn't try and sell me expensive hair products which I guess is popular now.
I guess the subject of trans or gender / sexuality tends to operate at such extremes re: roles, that often it sounds like they're trying to awaken our grandfathers and talk to them instead of us. That's not the trans people's fault but it is a problem with the narrative. I know people who are like myself, trying to understand better, and yet the only narratives out there are these extremist discussions about roles, etc. Hell, The wife and me are a cou-couple of straight, white cis people. But there's lots of ways the dominant new thought about gender / sexuality, etc., is wrong about us. We havewn't deliberately done so-called role reversals, etc., it just falls that way in many areas. I wouldn't speak for Her, but all I can say for myself is, I just do what needs doing, and am pretty much a uncomplicated person about any of that stuff. I just find the new thought tries to complicate things, or pigeon hole, or make more labels while calling labels a bad thing.
Anyway I wish they talked about it in a way that didn't make a lot of us sound like we were somehow still stuck in McCarthy's 1955. Not only does that image not fit many cis straight whites, but it seems downright disingenuous to the point that if I hadn't known any trans people for real, I'd probably have just skipped the whole show altogether, not phobic, just saying it's totally wrong about us.
I don't know if that makes any sense, sorry if it doesn't.
Hey Leo,
I think I understand what you are asking, but please let me know if I'm missing the point in any way.
As far as gender roles go, I agree that they aren't very enforced anymore. I'm under no illusion that men are still exclusively dominant, heads of household and women are still exclusively submissive, obedient homemakers. This would be simply inaccurate of me to suggest.
Thus, I think what I, personally, mean by gender roles is just the social differences between men and women in general. Even if you don't ascribe to 1950s-esque gender roles and stereotypes, I'm sure you can acknowledge that men and women are still two separate categories in society. No problem with this, it's a largely sexually dimorphic species, and as I expressed above, I embrace and appreciate the innate differences between the sexes.
So I, and other trans people, are merely saying that in our head, we fit the gender which is opposite of the gender assigned to us at birth. Generally, transgender people will be drawn out of a fathomlessly deep depression after receiving cross-sex hormone treatments simply because this is what their brain craves. It's just nice to be perceived in society and in interpersonal relationships as the gender you feel yourself to be inside.
So yes, there are traditional "tomboys" and non-traditionally masculine men, and they are still firmly women and men despite having traits and enjoying things associated with the opposite sex. These people have no inclination to become the opposite sex, because they identify with their birth sex. They just dabble in things that are considered not typical for their gender.
That's totally cool. And transgenderism is a totally different topic of conversation.
I also want you to understand that I, at least, never want to demonize or villainize straight cis people. Most of the people I know and love are straight and/or cis. I don't think all of you are stuck in a timewarp, and I'm sorry if some raddical gender activists ever gave you this impression. The majority of us queer folk understand that we're just different in superficial details, and most of us love and live mostly the same.
I hope this helps. Let me know if there's anything else or if I didn't hit on what you mean.
Jake
Yes, that makes a world of sense. I really appreciate your response. You kind of made it
all come together for me. I do understand about the social differences, and other types
of things. I'm certainly in that category. You're right, I don't think about doing the things
"like a woman "I just think about doing them. I mean domestic stuff and nurturing stuff
and all that.
It seems that trans people have to really think about the stuff much more than we do.
Since we have the same gender as the sex we were born with.
Anyway, I really appreciate your description. For me, it really helped make things clear.
I'm glad I was able to help. It's great for me to be able to make someone else understand what this stuff is and what it means.
Jake
I do take issue with one thing you said quite a few posts back, and IMHO it's a mistake a lot of LGBT people tend to make.
You were claiming that in nature your genes would not have propagated, and that simply isn't true. If you were born into a Paleolithic tribe, and your brother died in a hunting accident, you could then reasonably take on the male role -- a lot more defined when people were scarce and predators were many -- and you could have gone out with the pack to hunt and bring back much-needed protein.
That brother's kids, if any of them are boys, have the same Y chromosome of your father, the same mitochondrial DNA as your mother. The boys will pass on the Y and the girls the mitochondrial DNA. Those markers are very solid for transmitting genetic properties.
And speaking of chromosomes, there are trans, or occasionally even cis, who have the wrong chromosome set. I forget who she was but a famous woman had XY, and she was straight Cis. She couldn't pass on the y, that goes through the sperm, but she had one.
There are genetic tests for that stuff now. I sent my sample -- just a cheek swab -- to the Genographic project, since I'm an adoptee and didn't know my actual heritage, and got results that connected me with Neanderthal and Dinesovan hominids. Cue all jokes to that end *smile* but I wanted to put that out there.
This isn't gender studies or any of that, it's folks like Richard Dawkins who have spent a lifetime dedicated to the study of genetics. LGBT do in fact play a part in genetic propagation, even if it's not direct reproduction. We're social tribal animals. If bears could be LGBT, theirs would never propagate because they're largely solitary. But solitary humans don't actually live very long in the wild.
Anyway I know the soft sciences people don't bring this stuff up, but it's worth noting IMHO, and maybe you can check into getting that DNA test and find out what set you've got. If you're curious.
If you don't have a penis, you are not and never will be a man. Plus, as someone said in an earlier post, if you wanted to just live as another gender, just wear clothes of the opposite sex. Don'd do all this work to change your body.
Chelsea, you're an idiot, pure and simple.
Do some research on gender and then get back to us, all right? Frankly, no one needs to wander in here and read your drivel, especially when it's this uninformed.
I wouldn't normally be so harsh, but because it's you and because you ought to know better, I have absolutely no illusions and no reason to be gentle either. You've long since worn out whatever grace natural ignorance would normally afford someone.
I said that, but that wasn't exactly what I meant.
Read his post and read mine.
He talks about being comfortable with his body, so we were having a discussion based on that.
If you don't have a beer-belly, you are not and never will be a middle-aged
man. Plus, as someone said in an earlier post, if you wanted to just live as
another age / gender, just wear clothes of the age / sex. Don'd do all this lack
of working out and eating junk food to change your body.
@Chelslicious:
Thank you for your elegantly worded opinion on my genitals.
I shall pose the same question to you that I posed to Forereel earlier, that is, would you treat a veteran who lost his penis and/or testicles during combat like a woman because he does not have a penis?
Would you treat a man who was the victim of a botched circumcision at birth like a woman because he either has no penis, or a non-functioning and non-recognizable one?
Would you treat a man who has some form of androgen insensitivity like a woman, since he has a micropenis which will never grow to more than the size of a large clitoris?
If the answer is yes, you’re an idiot. Pure and simple.
If the answer is no, than may I politely inquire of you the standards by which you determine other’s genders?
Do you ask them upon meeting them the arrangement of their junk?
Do you ask them what set of chromosomes are represented in their DNA?
Do you ask to take a blood sample to determine their hormone balances?
I now declare that you, my friend, are not a woman. You are male. Period. End of discussion.
Are you saying “I don’t give a fuck what you think, you know nothing about me. I don’t care what you say I am.”
Good. I don’t blame you.
But that’s also what I’m saying to you, dear. You are less than no one to me. I care more about my mail lady than I do about you. I care more about the kids who attend the high school near my house than I do about you. I care more about my regular bus driver than I do about you.
Even if my fucking mother called me up right now and told me, “Listen, I gave birth to you, and I raised you for 18 years, and I just know that you are a female. You are not a man, and you need to end this transgender bullshit right now, because you have a vagina, and I’m your mom.”
I would say, “Thanks for the opinion mom, but fuck you. I’m a man.”
No one can tell you, with any authority whatsoever, who you are except for you. And I know that sounds corny as fuck, but there’s no better way to put it. You are the only authority on yourself.
Furthermore, you have no clue what it means to transition to the opposite sex. Thus, you have no right to even so much as offer me advice on what I should or should not do with my own body and my own life. I will wear the clothes, sport the haircuts, inject the hormones, undergo the surgeries, and frankly do whatever else I damn well please to make myself feel good in my own skin, and I owe no one any explanation about why I’m doing these things. I will live once and then I will die and never get to live again. I’ll be damned if I’m going to live my life as a woman in a suit just because ignorant assholes like you don’t think I’m a man.
I don’t care what you think about me. This topic was meant to get opinions on transgender folks and try to help educate some people who were genuinely curious to learn. I had some amazing discussion and a small amount of debate with some lovely individuals who I may disagree with, or who may disagree with me. But at the end of the day, I recognize that everyone I’ve spoken to so far about this shit is a really nice person, and I appreciate them being curious and respectful in their curiosity.
You are just an irritating gnat that I’ve got to swat away while having an otherwise pleasant walk near a creak. You come in here, state your opinion on my gender as fact, and use frankly atrocious spelling and grammar to do so.
You think I’m a woman? Fine, see if I give a fuck. You think that does anything to me whatsoever? It annoys me at most.
I don’t know you, or anything about you, but answer me this:
Would you be so flippant if some part of your identity were so callously disregarded? Think about something that you are proud of about yourself, and something that makes you a unique individual. Imagine someone took that and flipped it on its head, told you it was shit, you were wrong about yourself, and they wouldn’t respect your wishes regarding it.
You’d probably say fuck you, and rightfully so, but that would fucking sting. Hopefully this doesn’t ever happen to you, because it happens to me quite often, and it sucks dick. I don’t wish it upon my worst enemy.
I wish the best to you, but I refuse to engage in any further dialogue with someone who has no interest in civil conversation.
Jake
@Shepherdwolf and Leo, I appreciate your support. It means a lot to me.
It might seem kind of stupid, I don't know, but this shit gets stressful. That's why I live stealth most of the time. I don't inform people that I'm trans usually because you never know what's going to happen. I'm at a pretty big risk for assault if I disclose that I'm trans, just because people like that lovely young woman above are threatened by me, or think I'm disgusting, or whatever other kind of nonsense. My goal is to finish up my transition and never have to talk about being trans again. I just want to be a guy, and I really don't understand the harm to anyone else in this request.
I'm glad that I'm talking to people on here about this stuff though, because like I said earlier, it's important. While I don't want to become the perpetual transgender educator, I do want to help some people understand. It's like what I said about educating sighted people about blindness. You don't always want to answer people's stupid blind questions (sometimes never.) But occasionally it's nice to inform sighted people of what shitty thing their doing to you so they might not unwhittingly do it to some other blind person later.
Anyway, rant over.
@Leo, I've had my chromosomes tested. I'm an XX. I actually am aware of the chromosomal abnormalities you are talking about. I'm not totally sure which post of mine you're referring to which you disagreed with, but I do happily acknowledge that their are some people who have traditionally male chromosomes and traditionally female genitalia, and vice versa.
Complete androgen insensitivity syndrome is where the fetus has a Y chromosome, and thus is meant to be male, but is insensitive to the rush of testosterone which occurs in approximately the seventh week in the uterus. This causes the fetus to then continue on a female pathway and not develop male genitals, and they are born appearing female. Most people with this disorder never find out about it until much later.
Conversely, congenital adrenal hyperplasia is when a fetus with XX chromosomes, or chromosomally female, is exposed to an inordinate amount of testosterone during a vital period of development, and thus develops male genitalia. They come out either looking sexually ambiguous, or sexually male in appearance.
There are many more chromosomal disorders and intersex conditions than these, as well.
Personally, I think chromosomes mean very little in determining ones gender identity. Most people never know what their chromosomal makeup is throughout their entire lifetime, and yet they still know what gender they are from an extraordinarily young age.
It's interesting though.
Jake
Jake:
I’ve been a lurker here from time to time because largely speaking, I guess I’m not bothered one way or the other about trans people. I don’t know a lot about them, but the idea doesn’t upset me or revolt me or whatever. I can’t be revolted by the idea if I’m a gay man; as you know we get enough trouble as it is, including from the young woman of whom you’re speaking. Just wanted you to know that you stated your case very eloquently where she and others like her are concerned, and I applaud you for doing that. You have my support, but for what it’s worth, I don’t think you particularly need it. And whether we live once or are incarnated again or whatever happens afterwards, we should all try to be as happy with ourselves as possible. My observation about the person you speak of is that she is not, in my opinion, a very happy woman. People who are happy with themselves generally don’t treat people different from themselves with such vitriol as she has over the past several months. This person has probably found her version of god, but I don’t think it’s made her very joyous or peaceful. Instead, I think she fears hellfire and eternal damnation, and I’m not sure that if there is a god, he, she or it really wants that for us. But then, all that is beside the point. If you’re happier as a man, be happy as one. If you’re happy as a woman, then do that. What I think of trans people is that they wanna be happy jjust like the rest of us. Clear enough?
Johndy, I thank you for your support, and I support you in all that makes you happy as well.
Your observations about this person sound pretty accurate, though as I said, I don't know much about her other than the ugliness which she has shown to me on this thread. I agree with you about any deity which may be in charge of the world. I'm an atheist, however I do believe that if there is an omnibenevolent being out there, they will only be concerned with the fact that I'm a good person who only does not believe in them because I don't have the empirical facts to back them up.
But anyway, I really appreciate your imput here.
Jake
I recently admitted to myself that I'm also transgender myself although I don't think
my case is anywhere near as severe as others. It seems like every other transguy I
meet bar like 2 has like a billion problems and I'm just like... well I wanna be a
dude lol. Sometimes I feel depressed because I feel like a dude in a body with tits
but I can definitely say I have bigger problems to deal with than that - it's just that
this one has a solution. I'm pretty excited about that.
In terms of relationships, my policy is simple. Tell me what you like, and what you
have, and if you like what you have. If we're good, we're good. Sometimes that stuff
just gets too confusing.
My biggest issue is the drama queens. Honestly the community has quite a few sour
apples and because of that it made it difficult for me to come out about my issues
too. There's also a lot of really pushy people I've encountered, who try to convince
you you're trans which I thought was pretty stupid. Those people made it confusing
to me to what it actually felt like to be transgender and when I realized that my
occasional feelings of a phantom penis and wanting to be male were exactly what it
meant, I couldn't help but feel frustrated that I spent several years trying to figure
myself out while dealing with a very pushy group of people. I don't think all trans
people are like that but I really am wary at first despite being one because of these
encounters.
Then there are the people who claim there's like a billion genders. Sadly this is not
just social media stupidity as I've seen it out in real life too. Honestly, and this is my
opinion, but I don't think you need a bunch of labels for this shit. I think it gets in
the way. If your gender is so obscure and weird that it defies any known word to the
human language then use more than one word to describe it. Or just go by they. No
need to call yourself a billion and one things. I really don't get the obsession with
labeling yourself.
So if people have encountered that part of the subculture I can totally understand
why people don't like transgender people. I pretty much just go my own way
honestly and only seek advice from others because I feel like a lot of other
transgender people have way more problems than me...
Like that's just my plain observation though.
I have two things to add:
People who claim there are a billion genders ut there, and that there are cultures who support this:
What cultures? I'm pretty well read in the cultural anthropology department, and have traveled some internationally. Provide just one cultural example where galaxy-gender people (like the person on the Out of this Binary YouTube channel) or other genders, with new unusual pronouns exist.
It gets a bit loopy, to be honest. And I agree with some who say, let's see what happens to these kids once they get off Tumblr, get out of university, and get a job. Or maybe a couple friends of mine of different ethnic backgrounds are right when they say this multiple myriad genders business is just "white people problems".
It just gets a little hinky and weird. No hate, just confusion and wanting to avoid so as not to be entrapped by an honest mistake.
Now here's my second issue, insurance:
So, you're a trans man. The insurance company denies you access to T. What the diggety fuck? I'm a middle aged guy and I know guys my age, cis straight whites like I am, who have to manage T levels. Too little testosterone strongly correlates not only to violence, but also and more often, depression, loss of will / focus, loss of any pleasure and I mean taste for food or smell of the outside air, etc.
Sorry but if you're trans, you're registered male now, seems the T should be covered by insurance as it would for any man.
Just my thoughts on that issue.
@Daigonite,
Good for you for finding your identity and all that.
I have to agree with you and Leo; I don't believe there are a billion genders, nor do I believe gender is a purely social construct. I think that gender is in the brain, and sometimes shit gets fucked up in there. Thus there is no biological or cultural basis to believe that all these gender unicornes exist outside of people's desire to be different.
I will say, I hope you don't continue to be afraid of trans people, Daigonite, just because you've met some of the worst of us. I'm in the camp that is firmly against trying to push people into being trans. Being trans is a very unique thing, and it doesn't happen to everyone. It's also not fun. There's a lot of shit that trans people have to go through to become authentic as themselves, and we would not go through any of it if we didn't really have an urge to live as the opposite gender.
So these people, who I call intellectual gender queers, really piss me off. They don't actually feel that they have no gender or some outside gender formula, they just want to be different. It deeply offends me that somebody could have so much privilege as a cisgender person that they can then choose to be trans. It's bullshit.
I'm not saying there are not non-binary people out there; I've met them, and I respect those who truly do have these identities. It's just much more rare than people (usually my age) make it out to be.
That being said, I and the majority of other trans people are not crazy gender activists who want to make everyone queer and destroy the gender binary. Most of us just want to live our lives in the correct gender.
@Leo:
I completely agree about the insurance thing. I'm getting my hormones and surgeries covered under my healthcare plan, but I think I'm lucky. My mother is paying for a very top-notch plan that covers everything. I'm even lucky that my mom is still willing to have me on her insurance plan although I'm transitioning. I'm lucky in many respects. Lots of trans people don't have these opportunities.
Jake
I forget how old you are Jake, but it's only recently that we parents can keep kids on the insurance plans until you turn 26, I think it is.
Interestinly enough, I started using they their them as gender neutral back in the 90s when the screaming blue-haired ones wanted us to write s/he his/her or the same phrase masculine followed by the same phrase feminine.
Good on whoever got they their them approved.
The reason it's so much simpler to understand transgendered people is you're the same as us only stuck in the wrong situation where you get dysphoria and all that. I know that's probably a very gross oversimplification, but I mean compared to the nonbinary fluids etc out there. It seems like a lot of those try to compress everything into a gender thing, rather than a class thing, or anything else.
And yeah I think it goes without saying most trans people aren't activists. Most blind / disabled people aren't disabled activists either.
Fuck man, many of us who are involved in the hunger problem in America aren't hunbry people either, we're the ones who have it and try to see to it others get access to food and necessities.
I don't like the way the newspeak dictionary has rewritten the term privilege, something that was earned and now is just granted by royalty / some magical mythical mystical figure or something ... but if we're going to use privilege in the new way: as my friend out here puts it, privilege isn't white, it's green. It's not penis, it's property." Kinda like the old statement "Sure the golden rule exists. They who have the gold make the rules."
My biggest thing with the New Authoritarian Left Church, as it were: This tendency towards downward equalization. Upward equalization is where we move to enhance the abilities and opportunities of people who didn't have that. Things like KNFBReader, for instance, are an incredible step towards upwards equalization for the blind. Gay marriage is an upwards equalization for gays. Doesn't take a single thing away from anyone else, doesn't require draconian sensorship, no need for any 1984, privilege, original sin, or any other bronze-age mythological constructs to make that happen.
Put it this way: Earthquake happens, you find out your pal Leo lives in your neighborhood and has been trained to respond to disasters. You're stuck in your house. Now if the Left / academics were in charge, they'd have the team Leo is on show up, accost someone who is "privileged" enough to have not gotten stuck, take stock of how you are stuck, and get this other person stuck in the exact same way.
Be glad the academes and the leftists aren't in charge of us, because in reality if we show up, we're most likely to triage and assess, and extricate you from the building as safely as possible.
The words these downward equalizers use were different, but trust me: they existed on university campuses in the early 90s as much as they do now. There just wasn't any selfies, Tumblr, Twitter, YouTube, etc. back then. The word "p[rivilege" was just starting to get newspeaked then.
Some will outgrow it, as apparently the woman who did the YouTube vid "Die cis scum" that went viral. And no, I doubt any of us thought she spoke for trans people, although I confess I do wonder if she spoke for Tumblr. Anyhow, she apparently grew up and rescinded all that as "just a phase". Probably got a job, or daddy's dime ran out or something. Happens to the best of us.
Anyhow, upwards equalization doesn't require authoritarian law, yelling and screaming at people, or any kind of newspeak dictionary, as downward equalization does. Upward equalization is often realized by community effort, innovation, and a bit of old-fashioned elbow grease.
I know I tangented, sorry.
Oddly, I pretty much figured you weren't one of the silly ones. It just seems really
hard to find groups that don't condone that behaviour. It's really annoying and it
really confuses people to what it feels like to be transgender. I mean, it basically
took me wondering if I was a gay man, feeling increasing sexual tension because of
the urge to have sex the male way and planning on secretly going on hormones to
make me feel more male until I realized I was trans lol. My friends were worried
about the whole thing and told me after I came out that they were about to ask
about it lol. Like if someone feeling like that is afraid to call themselves transgender
then you've got a problem lol.
A lot of these people bitch about their parents trying to make them cis and I'm like
lolwut? you're trying to convince people they're trans, isn't that the same shit? And
these people are a trigger finger away from saying you hate transgender people.
They really need to calm down.
I prefer viewing my issue as a medical condition instead of an identity, and that's
basically what research suggests what it is. I mean that's why I don't mind being
called by my old name or "she" instead of "he" because I mean, yes those are social
things and I'd prefer being called male, but I feel more like physically I should be
male than just wanting to be referred to as male. And people are going to fuck up
anyways so I don't see why people get so upset that they self harm when it happens.
I mean some of this might just be my pretty chill personality but I just feel like a lot
of other transgender people are really inflating or misattributing their problems a bit.
You know what I'm talking about? Maybe I'm just a trans noobie and I'm just
ignorant.
I get what Leo is saying, I understand when privilage is used to explain why someone might be ignorant. Like, someone tries to drag me across a road, they are ignorant to the fact that this isn't a productive way to guide. So, some would say they have abled privilage. I think the word is overused though, like, I could see it being used in the situation I've described above when actually lack of education is a way better descriptor.
I don't know if you know these trans people online or offline, Daigonite. I'd say offline you have a greater chance of finding the reasonable ones. Also start hanging out in more antiestablishment circles -- not your typical hipster left / right circle jerks, you'll find plenty of trans among the outside-the-establishment types. I've met a few that are even preppers and that.
It's people doing their duty to the party that get all spazz-tastic about every little thing, it has nothing at all to do with trans or gay or whatever. I have elders in my family who are cis straight white and can get perfectly spazzed over some religious thing ... in the end it's really the same game, different players.
One nice thing about not having a dog in either fight. *smile*
hi.
I think it is important too remember both online and offline, you will find
different kinds of people.
What i mean by this is some will bitch over if you call them he or she, other
will be more tolerant.
Should they of course if it is being done intentionally but what if it is a
mistake?
another problem can be in how well the person passes for the gender you
wanna be.
Live and let live. If you smile too the world it usually will smile back.
All that is pretty easy for me to say since we have some pretty tolerant rules
in Europe, not sure how it is in the us though.
Charming you say you live stealth, understandable if you will get harmed if it
comes out, personally i don't go and tell each and everyone I'm born
Intersexed, that is reserved for partners only or closer friends.
Do we have more problems in the end than the usual person, sure but it is
worth it in the end though, for some it is not a choice if they wanna live as
one or the other gender, body or not.
Hopes some of this makes sense :)
Sandi
If you'd like to hear a woman who is transitioned and sounds like a woman, look up Blaire White on YouTube.
She says that she got the genetic luck of the draw, my words. But Jake's right that for M2F transgendered people it's a lot harder due to what testosterone does.
I've heard from other trans women on that front, and to hear them talk of their struggle really tears your heart up. I know they're not looking for pity, but I'll be damned if the limbic system is not pretty overpowering at that point when you hear about such things.
Now as to trans men? My view has morphed over the years. I don't think we're doing them right as a society. And Jake correct me if / where I'm wrong.
Let me start by saying that I kind of swallowed the 70s / 80s thinking that all things were basically gender neutral. After all, even in a conservative household, women mended fences, girls played with trucks and cars, boys worked in the kitchens, all-American pragmatism at its finest. And I have no problem with that and appreciate the way things worked in that respect for me.
But then, I raised a daughter and am uncle to several nieces. My nephews are distant and so I don't have any kind of real relationship with them. Distant geographically, I mean. I learned a lot that violates the commonly held academic doctrines.
As my daughter was growing up, I learned that you aren't going to get very far telling little girls things like, "You're getting to be a young woman now, so I want to be able to trust you with this ..." and similar phrases people raised as boys are familiar with. I got roundly criticized by largely female peers of mine, and rather than feeling a sense of pride as I remember us boys feeling, the girls felt burdened and upset. I found that to be rather sad, even if I was deemed ignorant and all. I mean, I expected to see a little strutting, a bit of fluffing up of the proverbial feathers. And countless times said things like, "Hold your head up, have a little pride in yourself! Look what you just did!" when they did things worthy of that, or were trustworthy, it's even hard for me to properly explain because it's so natural to me as a male. For all their talk about self-esteem, a term I'm still a bit unclear on, it doesn't seem to be doing them a hell of a lot of good. Things like honor and respect -- the old kind of respect, not this new "Everyone has to respect meee!", were foreign to them.
Now I understand that those adherents of the academic agendered ideologies are going to jump all over me for what I've said; go ahead. Your opponents did just that during the raising of the girls. So go ahead, be as much like your opponents as suits you.
Here's where it comes down to trans men, I think. If you were raised female, and by people who were not like me and "did it wrong" as I'm so often said to have, and "understood how girls think," as I have so often been told I don't. Then you'd have missed some very important and positive-feeling situations I think. It's been said, women are born but men are made.
So yes, it's all good that you have support for your transition, but there's more you need:
Here's from one man to another: You earned this. You worked hard for it. You deserve respect for figuring something out most of us really don't do much more than sympathize.
My hat's off to you, buddy, you earned it. And that is what male initiations are really all about. You've passed an initiation far greater than some frat boy faux play initiation, or even some working class guy like me who just grew up, took responsibility, got it together and took care of himself, the most initiation most of us men will ever get.
Most of us, to be called men, must merely prove our dependability, trustworthiness and personal honor, what some call integrity and character. But you had to dig your way out of a very unfortunate situation and become a man in ways most of us never have.
I promise you this: While trans women in Portland are getting a party when they come out, any young trans man I meet who comes out? I'll get him his first pocketknife. I remember my first knife, both the pride when I got it, and the terrible sadness when I lost it for a few days.
By contrast, I had to practically press one upon my daughter, since I think everyone should at least own one.
But there are some things, while scorned these days, I think have value. One of them, as a man, is respect. The real kind, the kind that's earned. And I think the trans men have earned it more than most of us.
Bringing this topic back up, because of the recent debates raging on about transgendered people and public bathrooms.
What intrigues me on that front is it's mainly M2F transgendered people getting trouble, and from the videos I've seen, it's women giving them trouble. I'll be honest, a very so-called naughty part of me is glad to see this come out, not happy about the trouble the trans folk are getting. But for 40 years and on, haven't we males been lectured on and on and on by guess-who about how much more tolerant they are than us, better they are than us, more moral they are than us? Well now, we see how it actually is, or rather what most of us knew to begin with: you're every bit as human as the rest of us. Ding dong the high horse is dead!
But as for the transgendered people themselves? I have sympathy for them in this situation.
Anyway just wanted to bring this up to stimulate discussion.
Well, I have to understand how women feel about this issue.
No matter how trans gender people feel they’re women, women see them as men.
All it requires for some man that wanted a thrill, is to put on a dress, or woman’s clothing, and go in to the bathroom.
The women can’t read minds, so it is a difficult situation.
Until we get unisex bathrooms, this will continue to be an issue.
I would have to say until you have completed your change, if you are a male and still have many male trates that are visible, maybe you should just use the men’s room as you’ve always done.
I'm not saying there's not issues both for trans women and for cis women. I'm just sort of happy to see some kinds of people being shown up for being no better than the rest of us. Juvenile? Perhaps. But it's like when you hear about a preacher who carries on and on and on about sex and what is or isn't all right, only to find he has a Tindr or Grindr account and uses it on a regular basis.
I think it's kind of natural to feel this way after having been lectured at for so long.
Ah. Okay. I see that.
Ah, Leo. Now you understand exactly what I meant way way back in my post about smiling inside when some of the straight people feel like us gay folks have more rights than they do. I know that was a sticky subject for a while, but yes, when I see those who would gladly throw out a gay couple, and see them being alienated for being too normal, it's kind of entertaining. And just like in your response to it, I'll have to point out that there's no need to want to see young people being punnished for the lectures you got some 40 odd years ago. glad you have a better understanding of my point, now.
It's not quite the same thing, I know. i'm a man, and for the most part, I'm happy enough being a man. I don't feel like I'm in the wrong body, but I sure know the whole descrimination factor and non equal treatment bit. Here's the board that I refferenced in my last post. It's kind of neat to look back on.
THE "HOMOPHOBE" DILUSION (RE-VISITED)
https://www.zonebbs.com/boards.php?offset=0&limit=100&t=30081
Indeed and yes, I do see what you're saying.
I don't wish anyone to get harmed either.
But for the crowd that's been lecturing you as a gay man for 40 years or us as men for 40 years, I'm pretty ok with slaying the high horse, and sending that sonofabitch off to the glue factory. Hell, the aforementioned people might actually like being just one of the rest of us for a change, instead of better than everyone else.
You're right. And I don't think you actually ever supported punishing people for what they didn't. You're pretty sensitive about that too, which I appreciate.
Let all the people riding on the high horses come on down and join the rest of us, and send the high horses off to the glue factory.
If you ever meet an ex-lecturer or ex-moralist they'll tel ya how nice it is to just be human, be normal, like you and I or the rest of us. What's really not normal is the better-than-everyone types.
It's all good man, and yes I do see your point. And further, I'm not convinced you ever did condone punishing everyone else like that.
I find it ironic how when a woman expresses an opinion you notheads disagree with, you call her all kinds of names. Yet when a guy says similar things as said woman, or tells you you should use the men's bathroom like the man that you are, you ignore his comments. I hope you all find happiness someday, because it will make a huge difference as to how you interact with others in the world who don't share your philosophies, opinions ETC, on how the world is/should be.
@chelslicious, your projection is showing. Your idea is that I am a woman. I'd like to meet you some day and see how womanly you consider me.
Good day, Madam.
Now that that's out of the way:
I've been very preoccupied the last few months, so sorry I haven't revisited this board. Especially sorry I didn't get to read Leo's last post addressed to me. I deeply respect you as well, Sir.
I'd like to point out, with absolute certainty, that there is 0 (ZERO) evidence WHATSOEVER of trans people, whether born female or male, ever going into public restrooms and assault anyone. EVER. PERIOD. THE END.
I'm willing to entertain arguments, even those I strongly disagree with, if they have any facts or logic supporting them. This argument, however, is complete bullshit. It assumes that (A) trans women are going to go through the struggle, and it is a struggle, of transitioning from one sex to the other, only to get the opportunity to walk into the public women's bathroom and ... what? Watch a woman/girl walk into a stall and close the door? Thrilling! Even in the case of a locker room situation, do you really believe that a person will fully transition and go through all the trials, tribulations and horrific discrimination/prejudice involved, just to get a peek of a titty? Give me a break.
(B) this argument makes the ridiculous assumption that laws allowing trans women to use the women's bathroom is going to make men who want to prey on women dress up and put on makeup, sneak into a woman's bathroom and rape someone. May I just say that in my great state, trans people are perfectly able to use the bathroom of their choice with the full support of the law, and there has NEVER been a case of a male putting on a skirt and high-heels and raping a little girl in a public bathroom.
Everyone here must be smart enough to understand that male predators are going to prey on girls and women regardless of what the laws say. Just as conservatives frequently argue (rightly) that banning guns doesn't eliminate gun violence, so it is that banning transgender access to certain bathrooms does not eliminate sexual predators.
This is all without saying the obvious: trans people are not just sexual predators waiting for the opportunity to rape little girls legally. It will never be legal to sneak a camera into a locker room, or grope a woman in a bathroom. These things will never be legal, and yet, if they're going to happen they're going to happen regardless of the laws. You know why? Because sexual predators are criminals. They don't care about the laws.
Finally, what about little boys? Most sexual predators who prey on little boys, by far, are men. Is there any conversation taking place of separating adult male bathrooms from under-age male bathrooms? None.
Bottom line: trans people have been using the correct bathroom, that is, the bathroom which aligns with their gender identity, forever. You have almost certainly shared a public bathroom/locker room with a trans person. There are too many trans people who are perfectly able to pass as cisgender to say that this has never happened to you. If you were able to see/hear me, you would understand, quite clearly, why I should not be forced to use the women's bathroom.
Good day,
Jake
I don’t think this is a sexual predators issue, but a decency issue.
You are a female no matter what you think, and I’m sure you have some female things about you, that can’t be hidden.
If you do use the male public bathroom, men don’t really care if they notice.
Women tend to be more careful due to what might happen, legal or not.
It isn’t that they might get raped in the bathroom, it is they will be looked at by a man they chose not to show themselves too.
They don’t see him as trans, they see him as a man no matter what he thinks until he looks completely like them.
You can go both ways I suspect.
Until we have unisex bathrooms, women will feel uncomfortable about it.
Do you honestly never use the women’s bathroom, or sometimes go in with your girlfriend, because you can?
You’re a man, right, so do you feel as if you shouldn’t intrude on the women’s privacy in the bathroom because you are male?
Wayne, transgendered men are not men, they are women. Just as
transgendered women are not women, they are men. That is biologically and
scientifically true. even their brain chemistry is different.
Besides that, your logic is entirely lacking. You say that women are afraid to
expose themselves to men in the women's bathrooms. If if men, full on not
transgendered men, went into a bathroom, how in the hell do you think women
would be exposing themselves? are you laboring under the impression that
women, for some reason, strip naked and bend over the sink to pee? I don't
know if you've been in a women's bathroom before, but they have these little
things called stalls. They're these boxy things made of four walls. The women
goes into them and shuts this thing called a door. Then they go pee. So people
from the outside can't see it. And they're really only big enough for one person
to be comfortable. There's no chance of someone hiding in them to watch a
women pee. I know its a new invention, so this revelation may fucking shock
you.
Besides that stunning fact, there is the fact that there is absolutely zero,
none, nada, zip, zilch, not a damn iota of evidence that a transgendered person
has ever gone into a women's bathroom with the intent of trying to get a peek
at some pussy. There is evidence of guys dressing up as women to get a peek
at some pussy, but guess what; that's already fucking illegal, and has been
since the invention of the public fucking bathroom. So this bill, and these new
rules, are fighting against a problem that doesn't exist. IN fact, the person who
introduced these bills, a republican of course, just got in a whole heap of trouble
for sexually harassing no less than thirty-four women. and you're afraid of some
transgendered people, who belong in that bathroom anyway, and want to do
nothing more than empty their god damn bladder, when you have people like
that? That is fucking moronic.
I personally have no problem with trans gender people using the bathroom in any they choose.
I don’t have a problem with a full woman using the men’s room if she so wishes, but that is me.
However, you forget that women tend to do more in the bathroom at the sink that may expose them then men do.
You also forget that due to baths not being built for unisex use, some will not have these doors you describe, but are open stalled.
They’ll have the sides, but not the doors.
Some of the doors are sort of high, so a visual person can in fact see under easy if they choose.
Not that it happens, but any women noticing a person that looks male will most likely be uncomfortable no matter what we think.
She has no idea what is going on between his ears, only that he is still fully male, although, he may be dressed as a women and acting such.
I can understand the reasoning behind it.
I wonder if our host of this topic would feel perfectly comfortable using a men’s locker room at a gym?
You must shower, and dress in public, you don’t have any private stalls for this in most of them.
Our host is still much female, and when naked, will appear totally female.
Does our host use a men’s locker room, or does our host use the women’s?
It seems simple to me. Until you have fully changed, is it not simpler to just use the bath of your biological sex?
It even would be safer, not because of sexual predator, but due to some fool getting angry and trying to hurt you in some fashion.
Be as angry as you like, but facts are facts until we adjust and build more unisex bathrooms.
Your apathy is troubling Wayne. I'm curious if you could be so apathetic if this
were an issue more directly affected you.
No desire to join this here debate. Simply want to mention an invention I have recently heard of called the she-wee. There are now portable devices which allow women to urinate standing up.
I do things now due to my race, so I'm sure if I were in this place, I'd do the smart thing and use the bath according to what I was mostly.
Why would it be a hardship for me to continue doing what I've always done before I made up my mind to live as a female?
How many trans gender people have the money to pay for the operations required?
Even our host here has not completed the change for several reasons, so still much is a woman when fully naked, or seen in an open stall.
If this shouldn't be such a big deal, why don't we just remove the signs on the bathrooms and allow anyone to use any they happen to walk in to?
We're just there to empty our bladders, right?
I'm actually in favor of unisex bathrooms. it works in Europe, it could work
here just as easily. But the problem with your post, well the one I'm going to
focus on cuz it seems impossible for you to understand that being
transgendered isn't something you decide, is that you're being apathetic, even
about race, which is horrifying. You're saying something is easy. Do you think it
would have been easier for Andrew Young to stay home in 1965 and not get
beaten into unconsciousness in st Augustine? You think it would have been
easier for King to stay home instead of organizing that strike in Memphis and
catching a bullet? Think it would have been easier for blind people in 1985 to
stay home rather than going and protesting at airline counters so that we didn't
have to sit on blankets during flights in case we shit ourselves? The fact that
you're ok with something simply because its easier is infuriating to me. Its why
I have no respect for you, because you're not willing to stand for anything. its
also why I don't think you should post on things like this because your apathy
makes you a non-entity when it comes to most issues. Go post on one of apple
peaches pointless boards where the two of you can match asininity for inanity.
I think in this case it is easier.
The other things you talk about weren’t issues of gender and not knowing if the person that appears to be a man is actually trans gender.
It isn’t like you get a license, or a special sign that gives you credibility.
You can tell if a person’s blind and such other things.
We are actually building more unisex bathrooms, and that is a good thing not only for trans gender people, but for other reasons as well.
Instead of insisting a person that appears to be male use the female bathroom, why not insist businesses have unisex bathrooms?
Wouldn’t that be the better way to solve the problem?
Call me silly, but if there was a way to know the man that wishes to use the female bath was actually trans gender, I’d bet women would have less problem with it then not knowing.
But, at this time, you don’t know, so they’ll remain being apprehensive.
First of all, I want to thank Cody for being an awesome trans ally in this debate. You're on point, Sir, and I appreciate you jumping in and making sense here.
Just want to point out for future reference some terminology: if a person has transitioned from female to male, that person is called a transgender man, or trans man. Vice versa with trans women, who have transitioned from male to female. The person is always referred to as the gender they identify with. You got them mixed up, I think, but otherwise you're spot-on.
Wayne:
I respected you for a while for asking me questions that made sense at the beginning of this topic and seeming to actually respect my identity. I'm losing my patience with your insistence that I'm even slightly a woman, though. I've said now countless times that I am not a woman. I am not. I don't care if I have a penis or not; I've been hormonally and socially transitioned as a FULL man for over a year now. I DO NOT appreciate you (or anyone) insisting that I'm either still partially a woman, or that I'm not a full man. I'm a trans man. But I'm a man.
So no, I do not use the woman's bathroom. If I walked into a woman's bathroom, I would be run out of there so fast it would make my head spin. Well, maybe being blind would be the only thing that saved me.
Do you know why that is, Wayne? Because I am a man. I look like, feel like, talk like, act like, dress like, walk like, smell like, sound like and live like a man. PERIOD. END OF STORY. I refuse to discuss my status as a possible part-time maybe woman just because I don't have a fucking penis. I hope I've made it absolutely clear at this point, because it honestly is becoming tiring.
I'm going to ask you again: do you think that the penis is the only thing that makes the man? If there were some horrendous accident tomorrow and somehow one of your male loved-ones lost their penis, would you tell them to start using the women's bathroom, or even a unisex bathroom, because they don't have the right equipment? Are genitals really that important to whether or not someone is a man or woman? That's a strange way to live, because in your world, you can never quite be sure who's "lying" about being the gender they say they are until you (A) sleep with them, or (B) involuntarily check their genitals. Is that really the world you propose we live in?
What I am trying so hard to get across is that I think it's extremely unfortunate when any minority group, including blind people, can still find it acceptable to totally disrespect and discriminate against another group of minorities like Trans people. Are you saying that because everyone can tell that we're blind, that makes it then okay for us to demand equal rights and equal treatment? But since you can't necessarily tell that someone is transgender upon meeting them, they don't have that right? Or they should be forced to disclose it and possibly put themselves and their families in danger? I just really don't understand where you're coming from.
But ultimately, Cody is correct: why is it that you (I assume) would not be okay with blind people being separated from the rest of society like fucking pariahs because we are a danger to others, but you're perfectly okay saying to a trans person "Hmmm...you don't have the right naughty bits? Fuck you, hold it!" You're even saying that trans people should not be allowed to enter the bathroom of their choice, but we should make special bathrooms just for them. You know, to separate them from the normal folks who won't put our nice, normal children at risk. What if they said the same about blind people? We're no longer allowed to go places the general public can because we're too dangerous to ourselves and others to be walking amidst a crowd. This is not a super unlikely thing that could have happened back in the day, so would you have been okay with that, too?
That's honestly pretty fucking gross, man, I'm not going to lie. Trans women are women. They were not born with a vagina, but they're women. Radical idea: let's stop putting bullshit restrictions on people just because they're different from us. I personally think that gendered bathrooms are arcane and out-dated, as their entire purpose was to protect women's purity from dirty old men. Shouldn't we be past this bullshit? But as long as gendered bathrooms do exist, transgender people belong in whichever fucking bathroom they fucking identify with.
Good day.
Jake
P.S., A trans woman walking into a women's restroom, as Cody pointed out, would not see anything but women going into and coming out of a stall, washing their hands, and leaving. They might engage in some friendly conversation at the sinks. That's it. You saying that there's something else that women do at the sinks is...honestly pretty confusing to me. What are you talking about? Also, you say that women don't want a man looking at them in the bathroom, well, great news! No men are looking at them in the bathroom, as the only ones in women's bathrooms are women, cisgender or transgender.
Yeah that's pretty spot on there Jake. I think most now notice because of the bathroom bills that are out.
Well, maybe not most. It really just depends on where you live--whether you live in a really prejudice area makes a difference for sure--and how you appear to others. Unfortunately, it's a lot more difficult to hide the results of a male puberty flooded with testosterone than it is to create those results. Trans women have a harder time, on average, passing as cis because testosterone really does a number on you, and a lot of times they're taller, broader, and have deeper voices than the average woman. But the point is not really hiding the fact that some people are trans, but changing people's attitudes toward trans people. People need to get over it already, and stop acting like trans people don't belong where the "normal" people belong because they don't have the right genitals.
But to your point, I don't think most people even notice now. It's such a non-issue in most places, except for perhaps the deep southern states. Thanks to the idiotic rhetoric of Ted Cruz recently where he starts talking about how we shouldn't let grown men into women's bathrooms to prey on little girls (good news, I don't want that either!,) people are getting this shitty depiction of trans people as abnormal and other at best, and predatory at worst.
All I know is that I go into the men's room every day I'm on campus, and walk past dudes who are pissing, and stand next to guys at the sink, and I don't think I've ever spoken a word to any of them. When people mind there fucking business, everything's fine.
Again, I’ll state I have no problem with even a full woman using the men’s room.
What I’m saying is I can understand why some women are uptight about it.
It isn’t about your having a penis if you are still a full male that feels you are female,
but the fact if you appear a male figure, and I’m talking fully dressed in women’s clothing, women are going to have an issue with that.
Until you as you put it, look like a woman, smell like a woman, talk like a woman, you are going to be viewed as your biological gender.
If you have changed, and you now are a female, or as close as it gets to one visually when fully clothed, you’ll not have any issues using the women’s bathroom.
You pointed out, you now look like a man, so unless you are viewed in the stall, know one will notice in your case, so you have no problems.
However, I did ask are you totally comfortable showering in the men’s locker room fully naked, and getting ready for your day after your workout?
That is an honest question, not an attempt to discredit you.
I didn’t say we need special bathrooms, what I said is we need to change over to unisex bathrooms.
That is nothing specific, it is for all not just a trans gender person.
Just like we have braille on the signs, and ramps for wheel chairs. These don’t change anything, but make it convenient.
My questions above are still my thoughts, however, I can understand the woman’s side of this issue just like I can understand your situation.
I’m sorry, but anyone that appears to be male stepping in a woman’s bathroom is going to cause problems. Why is that concept difficult to grasp no matter how you feel about being trans gender?
I really don’t think it is the trans gender that causes the problem, but the appearance.
As blind people, we don’t understand how much the visual affects emotion and feelings.
Men seem to be more accepting of these sorts of things over women as stated earlier in this part of the discussion.
We need some more women posting, and maybe that will change the tide, or prove me flat wrong.
Any takers?
Let me first say, I am sincerely sorry for getting the terminology wrong. Its
something I've always struggled with, and I'm trying to get better at that.
Thank you for correcting me.
Now then, Wayne, there is something you're not considering in your ideals.
Lets say that you walk into a bathroom in North carolina, where the law says
you must use the bathroom of the gender on your birth certificate. if a person
who is anatomically male, therefore has male on their birth certificate, is using
that same restroom, they will look, dress, smell, even sound like a woman.
They're going to be wearing women's clothes, wearing women's perfume, and to
all visually purposes be a woman. There is even a meme going around right now
of a trans man, hopefully I got that right, who is a real grizzly adams type. He
has a beard, is muscular, looks like a biker if the descriptions I've see are to be
believed. The caption of it is something like, "you're forcing me to use the same
bathroom as your daughter". Because his birth certificate says female.
So wayne, can you please explain how in the fuck you think that a woman is
going to be more comfortable with someone standing next to them at the sink
who looks like grizzly adams or a biker, than they would with someone who is
wearing a pretty sundress and a nice pair of heels? Because that is the crux of
your argument Wayne. Taht is literally what you're arguing for. You think that
would be easier. So please explain to the class how in the name of the great
flying spaghetti monster you think that would be anywhere near easier.
Trump stood with the transgendered folks on this one.
It took a trans guy to point this one out to me. Interestingly, Bob on here has rightly accused us of southern bashing in other boards, and that's true. Clinton, Inc. doesn't have such a wonderfull track record of supporting the LGBT crowd as many in New Thought(TM) would have you believe.
This one really falls to the cis women, as I kind of said before. Cruz, much as he might wish he could, won't be doing any monitoring of female bathrooms. All double and triple entendres fully intended re: social conservatives and funny bathroom behaviors.
I think I was clear on that question Cody.
I stated if a person appeared as the gender they were using the bathroom of, they’d not have any problem.
I said, women are only going to have a problem if a person appears to be male, but is dressed as a woman.
If a male has not fully changed, or changed enough so by appearance, (she) is now female, that person is going to cause a problem.
If you don’t follow our host in to the stall, you’d not know at all, but if our host had to be fully naked say in a men’s locker room, I believe that would be noticeable.
What is on a person’s birth certificate will never come in to question when (she) is just using the bathroom provided (she) now appears as female.
But again, if (she) appears male, but dress female and happened to be trans gender, the women in that bathroom are only going to see a male dressed as a woman.
They are not going to know what is going on between (her) ears, so are going to have a problem.
It isn’t the gender, or trans gender, that is the issue, but the appearance.
Visually, there are lots of cues that tell us a person’s biological gender, when they are fully dressed.
That is all.
Again, if we’ve got unisex bathrooms, appearance now is void.
Problem solved.
For people going on about what is on a birth certificate, they’d only know that if they knew the person as a child, or that person told them.
I'll add again.
For these that can't afford the operations, or who have not been altered enough, it is simpler and safer to use the bathroom of the gender they were born to be.
I don't know this, but if insurance or the Government medical coverage would cover the cost of changing, this would make life much easier for the people that need, or require assistants.
Except you're again wrong, because you fail to take into consideration the
people in the bathroom you think its safer for them to use. Go to google wayne,
see how long it takes you to find a news story of a trans person getting beaten
for walking into the men's bathroom dressed as a woman, go ahead. Tell me if
you think its still safer then. we have people, right now, saying that they're
going to be taking guns into the bathroom to protect themselves against
transgendered people. It got so bad one Target store actually called in an active
shooter, and you think its going to be safer if they use the bathroom of the
gender they look like? Besides that, what constitutes looking like a woman or a
man? I dress in jeans and a t-shirt, the girl I was with yesterday was dressed in
jeans and a t-shirt, which gender were we dressed like Wayne? How can you
tell?
Here's an idea, if you really want things to be easier, shut the fuck up and let
people pee or change in the bathroom they feel most comfortable in, and mind
your own god damned business.
And that is I’ll bet where this whole thing falls down.
It is appearance that is the problem, not that people are trans gender.
Not in a general sense anyway.
It is safer if you appear more of less the gender you are appearance wise.
We, not only trans gender people, are forced to make decisions everyday about the things we do, or do not do related to our personal safety.
It is unfortunate, but the facts.
Generally, sure, you can tell a woman and a man apart even when they are dressed in jeans and T shirts, or even dresses for that matter.
So, I’ll stand on appearance. In this case of the women objecting, is what has caused the issue. Unisex baths would take care of lots of this, now wouldn’t they?
Here’s a paradox. I’m a black male, if I’m out with a white female, I have to think about the places I take her to, or we go related to our safety.
Let’s say we are country music fans; we can’t just step in to any bar featuring country music. We have to be careful of the places we choose.
Now, I could safely take that same girl to an all-black blues bar without a problem.
On the other hand, if I were a white male, I could safely take my black girlfriend to that same country bar, but not the all black blues bar.
That paradox I’ve lived, and live daily, so I know exactly what I’m talking about.
Lived and done nothing to combat. And that is why, though you may know
what you're talking about, your opinion means nothing. You're opinion is a
shrug and a "just go on about your business". I choose to tell anyone who says
I can't do something to go fuck themselves, in no uncertain terms, and I
support any other minority group who wishes to do the same. Right now the
trans community is telling right wing bigots to go fuck themselves. You're telling
the trans community that they should just hush and eat the crumbs they're
given like good little puppies so they don't get yelled at or scolded. You'll excuse
me if I see you as a coward.
Yes, and no.
I'm telling the trans community, that until they are fully changed, or appear as the gender they are wishing to use the bathroom of, they are going to experience problems and should use the one more suited to the gender they appear to be.
These women’s sensibilities need to be understood to a point, and also addressed.
In this case, as I see it, they can be addressed without all the anger.
Know one, but the extreme, or someone they wish to be intimate with, are going to care what they were born as.
Sometimes, I feel people want to fight when they really have no need to fight.
This discussion starts with a question. “What do you think of trans gender people?”
Now, suppose someone posted they felt all trans gender people needed medical and mental help?
They felt they were an abomination to humans, and on.
If you asked a question, you must be prepared for reactions, and some won’t be to your liking.
The answers or opinions, if looked at in the right light, might bring about solutions.
In this case, you want the women to accept people that appear male, and not worry about their sensibilities.
You give them no rights whatsoever.
You take away one groups rights completely so that another group can be comfortable, or do as they see fit.
You reject the middle ground, because these women need to just get over themselves when we have several solutions that can solve this issue making everyone comfortable.
What is wrong with that?
Why is that cowardice?
A few upgrades, and changes inside the bathrooms, and putting up a new sign on the door or wall could work this whole issue out.
Let me put this into a context you can relate to. Imagine if I, as a white man,
had told you that, rather than be offended by you not being allowed to vote,
you should just hush, and accept it. Because if you don't, you're just going to
create problems. And then, if you ignored me, and got the crap beaten out of
you, as many did, I simply said, "well see, this wouldn't have happened if you'd
just shut up like a good boy and said nothing. You were perfectly fine not
voting, but you had to vote, and now you're in the hospital." I would be a KKK
member, quite literally actually since I've actually heard speeches and read
speeches that say pretty much that exact thing. I think we can both agree that
KKK members are not something we want to emulate in our country.
so why then would it be ok for you to say, "no no no trans people, you're too
different. wait until you look not-trans enough, then you won't have anything to
worry about?" There's literally no difference between you saying that, and me
saying, "wayne, wait until you're white enough to vote, then they won't beat the
shit out of you. I mean, we freed you from slavery, now just take the crumbs
you're given without complaint and you won't have any problems." They're both
awful things to say. You couch yours in gentle speech, and mine is more blunt,
but its the same thing. What you're saying is to not make waves, because
making waves gets you hurt. You're not saying, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't hurt
people who are trying to pee."
Besides that we have to address the fact that having a trans person using any
bathroom doesn't infringe on anyone's rights. No one's life is changed in any
way if the toilet in target is used by someone with a penis or a vagina. They'd
be effected if the trans people wanted to pee on the toy aisle, but they don't.
They want to pee in the bathroom, in peace, and in private, just like everyone
else. But you're taking the side of the people who want to deny that based on,
well nothing really. There's no logical reason to deny this.
And yes Wayne, unisex bathrooms would solve this problem. Evolving past
the need to empty our bladders would also solve the issue, but we don't have
that either. How about you focus on what we do have, instead of what you wish
we had that would allow you to skate freely without having your offensive and
cowardly opinions changed at all by logic and reasoning for once?
*sigh*, I wasn't going to get involved in this because I long ago gave up on trying to reason with closed minds. But Wayne, you wanted more women's (and specifically, I believe, cisgendered women's) opinions, so here's mine: You are an idiot, a bigot, a chauvinist, and a coward. In short, you are the personification of everything that is wrong with this world and the reason why all marginalized peoples do not have basic human rights.
No matter how many times it's been communicated to you, you still will not accept the fact that trans men are men and trans women are women. You still want to insist that they are, even a little bit, the gender they were assigned at birth. They are not. It doesn't matter how they appear or how they sound. They are whatever gender with which they identify, and any comment to the contrary by you or those like you is transphobia. Furthermore, your insistence that a trans person must pass as the gender they identify with in order to use the correct bathroom is oppressive to those trans people who do not have passing privilege. There are many reasons why a trans person may not pass, and for you to say that non-passing trans people do not deserve the same rights as passing ones is despicable. Additionally, and this might just blow your little mind, not all trans people are carbon copies of one another. Just as each blind person lives their life differently, so do trans people. There are many ways in which a trans person might change their appearance and/or biology in order to transition to the gender with which they identify. And those changes are up to each individual and none of your fucking business. Your assertion that every single trans person absolutely must do all the things and have all the surgeries before they can be treated with basic fucking dignity and respect and not have to worry about being beaten or murdered is a glaring indication of your own mind-numbing stupidity. As for offending women's sensibilities, in case you haven't figured it out yet just from reading my post this far, not all women are weak and fearful creatures with oh-so-delicate sensibilities who would be frightened, offended, or scandalized by a male, or a woman who looks like a male, standing next to them at the fucking sink. Not all women would see a male or a trans woman in the bathroom and automatically assume they're going to be spied upon, groped, or raped. You're basically saying that all women are transphobic. I refer you to the earlier comments about your idiocy and mind-numbing stupidity. I realize that there are some transphobic women who would have a problem, but guess what? They are, indeed, gonna have to get the fuck over themselves. Yep, that's right. Their hang-ups do not matter. A trans woman's right to use the women's bathroom does not infringe upon any cis woman's right to do the same, and if it infringes upon her comfort level or her twisted sense of morals, well that's just too fucking bad. This whole argument that one group's rights must be sacrificed for another's is just as preposterous as it was when we were debating the Turn Away the Gays bills. I seem to remember that you were in the idiot camp on that one too, though. And I don't care how many times you bleat that you're just concerned for trans people's safety. Cody is right. You'd rather do what's easy than grow a fucking backbone and do or stand up for what's right. Weak, cowardly people like you are the reason why there is still so much discrimination in the world.
You can respond to any or all of the points I've made, or not. Either way, I won't see. As soon as I hit "Post", I am putting you on "Ignore". I have lost enough minutes of my life to your foolishness. Feel free to seek me out if you ever, ya know, become a totally and completely different person in every way.
Thank you,
Becky
Ah, Becky, where have you been all my life. I swoon madame.
All kidding aside, that was amazing, and my hat is off to you. Well written,
very well written indeed.
In no post have I advocated that anyone should be treated without respect. I feel they should be respected, but I can also see where making some changes can benefit everyone.
We are not talking about voting, a thing you can either do, or you can’t.
We are not restricting trans gender people to not being able to pee in a word, we are suggesting that some people have issue with it and reasons why as to where they do.
I understand this is a fear, phobia, but I can also see how it could be easily corrected without such anger, and struggle.
No matter how I personally feel about this issue, I have to understand the side of these women.
If this isn’t such a problem, why aren’t you that disagree with me helping the trans gender community and saying, we’re with you. Tomorrow, I’m going to start using the bathroom that is close to me and I’m not going to care what the sign says. This gender thing as related to taking a pee is silly, old fashion. There is absolutely no need to change anything but are minds, and we’re going to do this yesterday.
It is more than just standing at the sink that is in question, because not all baths are equipped with private stalls, but that doesn’t matter, right?
Because women have complained here, you women are going to set in the men’s room in an open stall and empty your bladders, stand and wipe yourselves, and smile at every guy that has to pass you to get to the next stall.
If you wish to adjust your underclothing, or bra, you’re simply going to do this at the sink in the morrow no matter what gender is standing next to you.
Everyone else, men/women, at your gym after you finish, you’re going to the opposite genders locker room, and you’re going to shower and change in peace. You’re going to feel perfectly at ease doing this, right?
You don’t want a peaceful solution; you prefer a fight.
I want people to stop being abused, beaten, arrested, or whatever, and I firmly believe a change in the way baths are constructed can and will save this.
Now we have a situation where if you don’t wish to use the unisex bathroom, you’ll have to pee someplace else, because that’s all we’ve got.
I’ll stand down on this post.
Let’s get to it America and start crossing our bathrooms.
That's the thing you're not understanding Wayne. We are doing exactly that.
we're saying that we are going to use the bathroom of our gender, and we think
transgendered people should do the same. You think they should use the
bathroom of the one they look like, or have on their birth certificate, or were
born as, or some other way of phrasing it, because you can't understand that
transgendered people are the gender they identify as. So yes, what you
advocate is exactly what we're doing.
Again, I really appreciate your thoughts and well-worded responses, Cody, and no problem at all about mixing up the terminology. Everyone does it at some point. A trick to remember is just asking yourself with which gender the person identifies, and calling them by that gender. (I.E. I am a trans man because I identify as a man, even though I was born a female.) I completely and utterly agree with everything you've said here.
I also thank Becky, who I can tell is also a great ally. I genuinely appreciate a cis woman's opinion on this issue, as I think it's more representative of the broader cisgender community than the minority of transphobic women who are making such a stink about this stuff in the south right now. They're of another era entirely, I think, one which is long gone and should finally be put to rest.
These anti-trans people are the same type of folks who used to say "oh my!" at the idea of interracial marriage; "Oh my, my poor, innocent white daughter seeing this black animal...he'll rape her, he'll take advantage, he's a beast, a savage..."
It sounds harsh, but that is the ugly reality of American history. Black people were treated as second-class citizens long after the demise of slavery. They still are in some cases; I overheard a neighbor of mine the other day saying to another man: "I see your dog is neutered. You know what I think? They should cut the balls off of black kids when they're 12."
Yep...in 2016.
So...Wayne. I am trying to be more understanding than I was in the last post I addressed to you. I concede that I did start this topic. I did ask the question: what do you think of trans people? However, I don't think you understand that I didn't ask this question idly. I asked it knowing that there would be ignorance in response, and with the goal of changing people's minds. The reason for this is, as stated several times above, as blind people we should know better than to maintain prejudice against an entire group of people, as many sited people do against us. It’s not only stupid and illogical, but barbaric. We should be better. than that. We, as blind people who are very frequently made to feel that we are other than normal, should not do this to other minorities.
Also, let me get on to something even more important. I need to get it through to you that yes, I am prioritizing the feelings of the trans person over the feelings of the cis person who is afraid of them. I am, and shamelessly. Because trans people go through enough bullshit in their day-to-day lives to bother with also feeling unsafe for using the fucking bathroom for fear that they'll be shunned (or sometimes much worse.)
You want to know my opinion on the feelings of the prejudiced cis women who don't want a trans woman to be allowed to use the women's bathroom? I don't care. I'll be blunt, I believe these women need to get the fuck over it. Sorry but not sorry. They're ignorant, hateful, terrified of absolutely nothing, prejudiced, transphobic, you name it, One thing they're not is genuinely concerned. They (and the lawmakers who pushed this horrible law) don't give a flying shit about predators in women's bathrooms. They just dislike trans people, and let's stop fooling ourselves by entertaining this fairytale of good concerned Christians just trying to protect the children. They're not totally dense; they know just as well as you and I that this law will not decrease the likelihood of men molesting women/girls in bathrooms. (As I've said, the likelihood of this happening is already basically 0, but I digress.)
Wayne, do you think that liberals during the Civil Rights movement should've had more sympathy for the sensibilities of segregationists? Remember, these folks wanted to continue treating black people as second-class citizens under the veneer of "separate but equal." This is actually very relevant, as part of the segregationist argument was that it would be uncomfortable for both whites and blacks if schools, bathrooms, businesses, busses, ETC. were integrated. Not only did whites not want to share spaces with blacks, as though they were equal to them, but blacks didn't want it either. Or so these folks argued. This is exactly what you are saying, only in the context of trans people. Should those pesky trans women just suck it up and use the men's room, even though they are women? I mean come on, those poor cis women have their sensibilities that may be offended.
Or do you think that it's different? Do you think that trans people just aren't as worthy of integration as blacks were back in the day?
Listen, I'm not trying to change the bathroom situation. Whether you like it or not, trans people use the bathroom of their choice every day, and you never hear about it because no one notices or cares. I'm trying to change attitudes so that people understand that biology is not destiny. Just because I don’t have a penis, does not mean I am not a man. Just because someone does not necessarily look like a woman to you, does not mean she is not a woman.
Let me spin you a story. A story that is actually true, as I’ve heard of several instances of it:
I watched two videos in which women (yes, cis women, women who were born women) were accosted for entering the women’s bathroom. Why? Because they didn’t look “womanly” enough. In the first case, the woman was very rudely kicked out of the bathroom by police. The other women in the room were defending her, but the police kept asking her for a photo ID. When she didn’t have it (because, um, all she wanted to do was use the bathroom,) she was forced to leave. The second case was much the same, except the woman was followed into the bathroom by some random dude and interrogated, then told that, well, she can’t blame him. After all, she was dressed like a man.
So this idea that these laws are only affecting trans people is not true. It has whipped anti-trans people into a frenzy of fear and paranoia, and now even cis women who don’t look “womanly” enough are suspect. That’s scary, man. I really want you to stop and appreciate how scary it is that you can be kicked out of a bathroom for how you look. So should those women who had their privacy violated be forced to use the men’s room or a unisex bathroom until they can get their act together and look more “womanly?”
See, you keep talking about doing things quietly. You know, not making a racket, not fighting the status quo. Yatta yatta. You think that we’re wrong for telling people “no, fuck you. Trans people can use the bathroom of their gender identity, and fuck the people who don’t like it.” But if I may be so bold, you have no room to tell trans people how to deal with this. You have not dealt with the humiliation involved in being told that you are not the gender you say you are. You have not experienced what it feels like to hold your piss all day because you’re too afraid to enter either public bathroom. And you don’t know how it feels to have people tell you that you should just either submit to the status quo, or be stowed away into some special area of society where you are separated from the “normal” people.
Or have you? I don’t know your history, but the way you’re speaking on this issue, I assume you have not felt so deeply disrespected that you had to fight or be silenced. If you have had these experiences, I’d love to know why you are telling me that I should feel fine about going into the women’s bathroom, even though I’m a man. And I should feel fine about being tossed, out of sight out of mind, into a unisex bathroom just so cis people don’t have to deal with me.
Further, why is it okay in your mind that trans people should only use the bathroom of their choice if they meet the standards of society’s idea of gender? You know, physically transitioning is expensive. And some people can’t afford it. So what, now we’re also saying that poor trans people shouldn’t have the right to use the bathroom of their choice because they can’t afford to make other people feel comfortable with how they look? Why the hell doesn’t any of this sound horrifying to you? And why can’t we, as we’ve done with racists over the years, just try to attack social prejudice and change people’s attitudes about trans people? Rather than put the burden on trans people to make cis people feel better, why don’t we exercise a bit of tough love and force cis people to get the fuck over it?
Would I feel comfortable undressing in front of cis men, for example in a shower in a locker room at the gym? Well after the surgery I'm having on the 17th (namely to remove my breasts,) mostly I would feel pretty comfortable. This is for numerous reasons that I won't get into unless you ask me further questions about it.
But here's the thing. And I must stress that you read and consider this next part carefully, because it's extremely important! Have you considered the alternative? Have you considered whether I would feel comfortable in a women's locker room? Further, have you considered how the cis women around me would feel, not after I undressed, but just upon seeing me walking into the door. A man. A straight-up man, walking into the women's locker room wherein women are in various stages of undress, looking over at the door and seeing a man like myself who is not even trying to hide the fact that I'm a man. I wouldn't even get the opportunity to explain that I was born with a vagina before I was ran out of there.
And I wouldn’t want to explain that. I wouldn’t want to because I am not a woman, whether I was born with a vagina or not. Why should I be there? I’m a man!
But should a woman be there, whether or not she has a penis. Yes, because she’s a woman. This is the fundamental disconnect with you and I: you seem to think that genitals make the person. So a trans woman who has transitioned, who lives her life full-time as a woman, who is as feminine as can be...she should be forced to go to the men’s locker room, because she has a penis. Are you kidding me?
This is the problem: you think we should meekly accept that people fear us, people want us to obey our biology and genitalia even if it’s not true to who we are, and we should bow our heads and allow ourselves to be separated from the rest of society. I’m coming from the position of a fighter. I won’t let myself be forced into the women’s or unisex bathroom. I’m not my genitals, and I’m not a second-class citizen. My ideal society would have people not give a shit if the person undressing next to them in the locker room has a vagina or penis, regardless of which gendered locker room they’re in. This is not the state of affairs yet, but I’m willing to fight for it. It seems to me, Wayne, that you’re not willing to fight for much of anything.
Good day.
Jake
Hear hear.
As for blind and all disabled people being above prejudice, I unfortunately had to come to terms long ago that this is not how it is. People with disabilities, as evidenced by two on this very board whose posts I thankfully no longer have to read, can be just as narrow-minded as anyone else. This was proven irrevocably to me when I met someone several years ago who was disabled, Hispanic, non-Christian, bisexual, and female but who had the audacity to be prejudiced against black people. Are you freaking kidding me? But it happens across all minority groups. LGBT people can hate Mexicans, Mexicans can hate black people, black people can hate LGBT people. It happens within single minority groups as well. Gay people can be prejudiced against bisexuals; partially sighted people can look down their noses at totally blind people. It's stupid. It shouldn't be that way. As you said, Jake, we should all unite to eradicate marginalization. But sadly, that's not the world we live in yet.
Becky
I am reminded of Dan Savage's column on Christianity. His challenge was to Christians who say, "Not all Christians are like that!" re: bigotry against LGBT people. His challenge to such moderates was that they should call out the extremists.
So what's needed is cis women to call out their own kind, just as Dan Savage adjures the moderate Christians to call out their own kind.
It's not likely that a trans woman will meet Wayne in the bathroom. Though she might meet Ted Cruz or Micky-mouse Huckabee, seeing their apparent proclivities.
Ultimately, it falls to them, because it is they who would call the police on a trans woman. Or, as has happened already, on a misidentified cis woman who didn't look feminine enough. If they never call for help, if they never make a scene, then nobody else will ever know a trans or misidentified woman had gone into the women's room. Sure, you might occasionally have an outsider report something if they saw someone go into the women's room. But for the most part, the complaint you see on videos comes from the occupants of the room, not passers-by, and not even the Ted Cruzes or Mike Huckabees, much as they might wish they were in that room.
Addly. I had said I was resting, but I’ll respond to you because I’d like to try a bit of a different tack.
I don’t expect you to agree, but I hope you will see that it isn’t that I don’t fight or believe you should fight for your rights to be respected and treated fairly.
I think people, not only the trans community would do far better to find a compromise that can, and will work for all concerned.
I am only speaking of this specific situation, because I realize compromise is not always possible, nor do people wish to even try to do so.
Thank you for answering my question, because now I can bring this a bit closer to you.
First, lets use the example of the full woman that had problems using the women’s bath due to her appearance. Know one wanted to believe her, and she couldn’t produce a photo ID, so was rejected.
That situation could have been handled in several different ways, so that she could have used the bathroom, and all was fine, but unfortunately, it wasn’t due to fear of people not being as they claim.
It wasn’t that she wasn’t female, it was the fact they weren’t sure, so made the mistake on the side of caution. Protecting the women already in the bath.
Now, yourself, you are a man, and I appreciate and accept that fact, but you have a bit more to go appearance wise you stated.
You now can use the men’s room without a problem, but the locker room situation will cause you to be uncomfortable, and you can’t turn to the women’s room to solve it either, so that leaves you in limbo.
If you could not afford to finish the breast operation, you’d remain in limbo.
That isn’t fair is it?
Appearance is the only thing people have to go on when they view a person.
Through history, and still right now, women are basically in the same boat as trans gender people. They have no choice but to try to protect themselves as best they can.
They many times have to suck it up after being raped, beaten, miss used, and what have you, because they were women. They can’t even get justice many times, so there going to try to protect themselves as best they can from people that appear male coming in to the bathroom that has no setup to give them total privacy.
A bathroom is a secluded place and if not set up properly leaves everyone venerable.
If a crime is committed against a woman in the bath, she has to prove she didn’t invite him in. She has to prove it wasn’t her fault or desire.
That is if she can even bring the person to court.
If the women knew the person that appears male was actually female, trans gender or biological, they’d feel better or more comfortable, and a crime would have to actually take place before they’d understand they were mistaken.
In that event, she’d also have more protection/understanding from the justice system.
Because you are trans gender, it seems you wish to toss out all this history and current vulnerability women face just like you daily because you want your rights.
I want to pee were I want to pee, and I don’t care what you must deal with, how you feel, I need my rights, and to hell with yours.
If we put in the law that all public places had to have unisex bathrooms, we solve this issue completely.
You’d personally not have to worry about what bath you use, nor feel uncomfortable in a locker room.
The poor trans gender person can now be whatever sex they identify with, and go to the bathroom no matter how they appear.
Once again, I’m only speaking of this specific issue, not the whole issues the trans gender community face.
I don’t think it matter if I told you the things I had to fight for, and sometimes do right now, because I’m not trans gender, so my problems aren’t important if they conflict with your rights to be trans gender.
You that disagree with me totally toss out the women’s rights and place the trans genders over them.
You don’t want a compromise; you want these women to get over their history and current oppressions.
If that is fairness, in your view, what else can I say.
I don't know how many women are reading this board, but I'd like to take an
informal poll. Comment if you, as a lady, have ever been into a bathroom where
there was not a door you could close to the stall you used. wayne keeps
claiming it, I've never seen or heard of it except from him, so lets just see.
Women, how many times have you had open stalls while doing your business?
And let's take a poll also: Women, would you or wouldn't you feel comfortable in a rest room with someone who you aren't sure is a woman?
So far we've had Chelsea against, and Becky for.
Wayne, if you're arguing that women who are forced to share a public space, bathroom or not, with a trans woman are being oppressed, I think you've misinterpreted the word oppression. These women don't have the right to cite the fact that women get raped more often than they should, just because they happen to be women. The fact that some women get raped, some get slut shamed, some get discriminated against on the basis of their sex, has nothing whatsoever to do with the fact that trans women want to use the bathroom of their gender! These goals--trans women using the women's bathroom, and cis women fighting sexism--are not mutually exclusive!
So I repeat, and perhaps it sounds heartless to you but I don't particularly care: the trans person's rights take priority. My reasoning for this is not because I happen to be transgender. It's because trans people using the bathroom of their choice is not hurting anyone. You are not acknowledging this very basic truth, and it's desperately important!
Nope. I don't care how these women supposedly feel. I already explained to you that trans people have been using the bathrooms of their choice for as long as gender segregated bathrooms have been a thing. Believe it or not, but it's only logical. Thus, these same women who are clutching their pearls over the idea of "men dressed as women" entering their holy pissing/shitting sanctuary have to wake the fuck up and understand that trans women have been pissing and shitting right along side them forever!
And forever more trans people will be pissing and shitting right along side "normal" cis society. No one is going to stop us, because we are not our genitals and we need to piss and shit just as much as everyone else, no matter how uncomfortable we make people.
But for Christ's sake Wayne, why the hell are you making this into an issue concerning the very dignity of women everywhere? Why is it that the bathroom is this fucking alter of female cleanliness and sanctity? It's not. Women go into the bathroom to take a dump. Sometimes they go in there to fix their makeup or hair, much younger girls may go in there to talk shit about other girls. But one thing women do not do in the women's bathroom is light candles and perform a séance to the female goddess of vaginas. I spent nineteen years of my life using women's bathrooms before I transitioned, and I can guarantee you that women do not go in there to escape the patriarchy. They go in there to do what men do in the bathroom: to piss and shit.
You have not commented on the very fitting example I used of the southern segregationists. Maybe you aren't convinced that it's the same situation. I concede that in some ways it's not, however it is similar enough to be scary. I bring it up because white racists in the south did not segregate white and black people just for the fuck of it. Sure, they were bigoted and thought that black people were inferior, but that was not the key motivator of segregation specifically. The key motivator of segregation was the fact that whites felt uncomfortable around blacks. They felt that black people were a threat to the purity, the safety, the sanctity of white society. Particularly ... white women.
I ask you once more: do you think it was acceptable for segregationists to tell black folks they were not allowed to enter public domains with white people because they offended white sensibilities? If not, why is the same situation okay when it concerns trans people in gendered bathrooms?
So... unisex bathrooms. I am totally, 100% for unisex bathrooms! However, acting as though you can just install unisex bathrooms wherever the fuck you want with the lazy snap of your fingers is ridiculous, and I know you know this. So what do you propose in the meantime? Because let's face it, there's a lot of buildings in America that do not have unisex bathrooms, and do not even have the structure that would allow for a unisex bathroom, at least not right away.
Also remember that, like the situation in North Carolina, some regions of the world are hostile toward the interests of trans people period. So lawmakers in places like North Carolina, for example, may not think it's important to spend the money on building unisex bathrooms. That ordinance may never get passed there, and trans people will be told to suck it up and use the bathroom that aligns with their birth sex. This is very plausible; even likely. It'll be a state's issue, and the transphobic states will do what they're doing now: saying fuck you to trans people.
What's there for us then? If we happen to find ourselves in a building without a unisex bathroom, or in a state that doesn't give a fuck enough to ever order buildings to have them, shall we hold it and earn ourselves a bladder infection, as a multitude of trans people still do every day for this exact reason? Or, do you think people should just leave us alone, no matter what the hell we look like, and let us use the bathroom?
The answer to this question truly does not have to be difficult. It's a matter of prioritizing the health, rights and well being of a group of people who are not asking for much. They're just asking to be respected and treated with dignity. They're asking that when they say they are men and women, they are respected in their identity. They're asking for the right to empty their bladder in peace, without being accused of having sinister motives or being perverts.
If every building in the world just suddenly had unisex bathrooms and locker rooms, sure I might use them. Or i might not. I'm sure many trans folks would use them, and many would not. Many would just use whatever bathroom was convenient at the time, like regular people. But the point is, are we allowed a choice in the matter, or are we expected to always use the unisex option because we are an other gender, instead of the gender we identify as?
You know Wayne, I do care about things you've had to fight for, whatever those things are. I just wish you could be more understanding toward my struggles. Because you telling me that I should be happy to be told that I belong in some "other" gender bathroom like an alien species, or that I should go into the women's bathroom because I'm not a real man, or that I should be more sensitive to the idiotic ignorant fears and phobias of the people who think I'm subhuman...well, forgive me, but it makes me less sympathetic to whatever you have gone through.
Jake
I’m back in I guess.
The problem isn’t that trans gender (women) are using the bathroom right next to biological women.
The problem is that biological women aren’t sure they are actually (trans gender) women, or feel they are, or identify as such when they look like men.
I’ll deal with your segregation issue, because it was a problem even in my life time as related to the bathroom and I’m not that old.
Even in the late 70’s early 80’s, my family was told in some southern states that the bathroom was out of order, or they didn’t have one, or something, but whites were allowed to use it if you watch close.
We understood that we shouldn’t stop in certain places to pee, but should just do so on the side of the road if traveling by car.
I’m only talking about the bathroom, no other issues, because that’s what we’re dealing with here.
Laws were passed, but it took a long time for a black person to get full right to pee anyplace.
I could still get turned away today in some places believe it or not.
But, let’s get back to the issue at hand, because I dealt with it, and I’m fine.
I don’t know how well you can see, or how much sight any of you’ve had, but visually, you can tell if a person appears male no matter how they dress.
If a trans gender woman that has not fully been surgically altered dressed in jeans and a blouse, comes in to the bath, if you look at her head and crotch area, she’ll appear male.
There are other visual clues as well.
Even after she’s been altered completely, if you are observant, you can tell, but you can also tell she’s been altered, so is as female as you are, only she wasn’t born that way.
Now, I’ll use myself as an example. I feel I am female, so I am going to start living female. No matter what I put on, I’m going to look like a man dressed in women’s clothes even if I wear a dress.
When I show up at the bathroom door, how do the women in them know I’m a woman too? They don’t.
Even if the bathrooms has stalls, and I’ve explained these aren’t always private, even ones with doors, because of how there built, you still got me in the bathroom with you a woman.
I can view you in the stall, and when you come out, if I’m of the mind, can possibly harm you.
I’m in there to pee and I don’t care about you, but you don’t know all that.
If I decide to harm you, it will be your word against mine, and chances are the law will side with me. Why didn’t you scream, call attention to the problem?
Well, I thought he was a trans gender women because he was dressed as a woman.
Even if I don’t touch you, you’ve been visually raped, because I observed you and there was nothing you could do about me standing there watching you.
It’s not against the law to watch a women pee.
Some men get off on that, so you are an unwilling participant in my sexual thing.
Let’s take the sex out of it, you just had to be viewed by a man you didn’t know or like.
Even some men don’t wish to be seen by a woman they aren’t interested in.
My examples are crazy, but facts.
Yes, it will take some time to get all bath unisex, but not as long as you think.
All major places will need to conform quickly if it is law just like they had to place these braille signs on the doors, and these keypads, handicap stalls you now find on many bathrooms.
Your problem is solved by construction, mine, being black, needed mind change.
But, no, you want the fight, not the solution.
The thing is wAyne, even women are saying you're wrong. You're trying to
use women as this sacrifice of virtue, and right now there is a movement of
women screaming for people to stop doing that because they understand the
issue better than you do. And what do you mean visually raped. Wayne, get this
through your head, women don't pee in the sink, they pee in stalls. I don't know
where you got this idea that there are open stalls, but you're going to have to
site evidence if you want to use that as a defense.
The interesting thing is that you've now added sexist to your transphobia, are
you just trying to show every group how much of an ignorant coward you are?
Cuz you're doing a good job of it.
If you read my post, you know I stated even stalls with doors, the person inside can be viewed to a point.
All stalls with doors are not equal, meaning, some have wider gaps then others.
Stalls that will have no doors will normally be found at smaller places, not like Walmart, or a large store, but they are around.
Some bathrooms are older and have not been updated, so the stalls will be even less private.
I'll grant, I've not been on a tour of all women's bathrooms in America, but have seen enough men's, and even some women's bathrooms, and that is where I'm basing this opinion on.
Some night clubs, and bars, have made it a rule that the doors are not lockable to help security, and some remove them completely.
I'd feel visually raped, if someone stood and stared at me, or used the mirror to do it and I could see them doing so.
That is just a concept, and may or may not happen, but is possible.
Only 2 women have posted on this section, I’m only talking about this one. One agrees with me the other doesn’t.
I don’t want anyone here to take my next statement wrongly, but most of my argument is based on the visual, and being able to see.
If you are blind, or have never seen before, I can understand how you could feel a stall with a door was private.
If someone comes in the bath that appears male, this would never affect you at all.
Even if they spoke, some biological women have deeper voices, so you may not be able to decide from that either.
The person could be completely male, and this wouldn’t affect how you felt, nor cause any alarm at all, because you’d simply assume it is another woman, provided you agree with the point I am making.
You’re not going to even think about it at all, because only women are supposed to be in this room, and that includes trans gender women that have been altered enough.
When I’m in the bathroom, I never think about who’s in there with me and I have no visual clues anymore to check, so it doesn’t cross my mind.
So, that is my case. I mean all of my posting on this section of this discussion.
So you're saying that transgendered people are going to be putting their eye
to a crack in the door, or getting down on all fours to see under the stall wall?
Believe it or not wayne, blind people can know some things about how things
look. I know for a fact you can't casually glance into a stall. I know that, for you
to see anything personal, you'd have to make a concerted effort to do so. I also
know tht sighted women, who I trust on this subject much more than you, are
saying that you're wrong. They're saying that you should stop using them as a
justification for your ignorance. The sighted woman I'm currently talking to off
site is saying that. I've even seen petitions for it to be stopped in the media, by
women, who know more than you do about being a woman. So, can you please
stop grasping at straws to justify your bigotry?
Ah...
"Your problem is solved by construction, mine, being black, needed mind change.
But, no, you want the fight, not the solution."
So my problems just require a little bit of construction do they? My problems don't require minds being changed. We need to respect those ignorant women who are afraid of trans people even though we have done nothing wrong! Shit, all we have to do is, what, convince a bunch of transphobic lawmakers across the United States to decide it's worth spending money on building unisex bathrooms in all the buildings...even though they have demonstrated that they don't care about trans people and would just as soon see them forced to use the bathroom of their birth sex?
My problems just require a little bit of construction. That's all. We just convince the people in power in states like North Carolina to allocate money to force businesses to put in special bathrooms for trans people to separate us from the nice, normal public.
Don't insult my intelligence, and I won't insult yours. You know as well as I do that requiring buildings to have unisex bathrooms for trans people is not the same thing as requiring buildings to have braille signs. You know why? Because there are still a ton of people in power right now who don't even believe that transgenderism is a real thing, much less who are willing to spend money making sure that they have a bathroom all to themselves.
You know, I never lived through segregation. I'm not black. I'm Hispanic, but I do relatively well at passing for white. I don't face the same struggles that black people do in America. I read about the history of slavery, and about the Jim Crow period, and about segregation and the fact that the country is still effectively segregated based on things like socioeconomic status. I learn about these things, and I think about them. I picture what it must have been like being a black slave in Georgia in the 1820s, being beaten and worked like an animal day in and day out, sometimes being sold or having my family sold, sometimes being beat to within an inch of my life (if not to death.) Being spit on, called horrible names, treated less than human...
And I've never lived through that. I'm grateful all the time that I never did.
Likewise with what you experienced of segregation. Knowing that even though it was technically legal to use the same bathroom as white people, you might not be allowed to anyway. Knowing that your life was at risk if you pushed the issue, or if you ran into the wrong white bigot that day...
I never lived through any of that, Wayne. But I read, and I think, and I imagine, and I sympathize. I acknowledge where I have it easy. I thank my lucky stars. If I were even a little bit religious, I might thank God.
And I would never, ever, ever tell someone who had to deal with something like that that they should be satisfied with an easy solution, like segregation; "separate but equal." If I had to talk to a civil rights activist from the 30s or 40s, when integration and legal equality in the south for black people was just a dream, I would never think anything but highly of their aspirations to change the world, one public bathroom at a time.
So I'm basically at the conclusion of my conversation with you on this, because I have given it my all and I don't think we're going to see eye to eye. I don't think you believe that my cause is worthy enough for me to fight for. I don't think you believe that I'm a man, or that trans women are women, especially since you keep putting the words woman and she in parentheses.
I also think that it's a complete shame that you think that, while it was great that civil rights activists decided that they would fight for full integration, not just "separate but equal" treatment, you think that I should just sit down and shut up. Deal with the fact that a minority of stupid women are uncomfortable with someone who is different from them using the bathroom. Deal with the fact that people in power in this country still openly call trans women child molesters, and totally ignore the existence of trans men. Deal with the fact that there are people like you out there who'd like to see trans people stuck away in an "other" gender bathroom, instead of fighting for the right to be treated like regular fucking people.
I am really pretty worn out on the whole thing, because if I can tell you everything that I've told you in the last few posts, and you still think that it's not worth trans people fighting, it's probably a lost cause.
I hope there is something more that Cody, or perhaps Leo or another trans ally could say to convince you, but I'm obviously not able to get through to you.
Good day Sir.
Jake
Don't kid yourself Jake. I'm entirely convinced that, were wayne alive in the
sixties, he would have told King to sit down and shut up too. He's a coward.
He'd rather take the easy way out of every situation. There's nothing he'd fight
for. he'd rather just see the situation he has now as good enough, because its
easier than risking anything by fighting. He is, and I've said this many times, a
coward. To quote shakespeare, dishonorable vile submission. That is what I
think of Wayne.
Oddly.
You misunderstand me on the construction part.
The construction isn’t specifically for trans gender people, it is the solution to make it easier for them to use the bathroom, or an aid.
If we have unisex baths, this solves your problem as to going in to a bathroom. It won’t solve your whole community issue.
I’ve said this in previous post.
I understand it won’t happen overnight, but it would go a long way to fixing this issue.
I don’t know how much you know about commercial construction, but most bathrooms can be changed easy in a commercial building.
What I mean by wanting the fight, and I’m only talking on this segment, is that it seems you don’t care about a solution, you want mind change, and we both know this won’t happen overnight.
Unless I say, oh, sure, no matter what, and let’s trample on these women’s rights, I’ll not get you to agree. You stated you don’t care, your rights over shadow theirs.
Okay, if that is how you feel, you are correct, we won’t agree.
But, for the record, I have nothing against your community. I do think, and I’m only speaking on this specific issue, some understanding on both sides might help so all are comfortable.
So, sure, we’ll have to agree to disagree on this segment.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m good with that. You’ll have to decide about that for yourself.
Hey, I'm not fretting over whether or not you agree with me. My problem stems from you not understanding where I'm coming from. Because like it or not, Wayne, your logic isn't adding up. It's just not.
First, you insist that I want a fight, not a solution. Why can't I want both? Seems to me that forcing these women, whose rights are not being trampled on at all by the way, to treat trans women like women and human beings is a significantly better solution. You say that changing minds will not happen over night? I agree. But you also admit that installing these bathrooms will not happen over night either. So which is it? Do we accept the fact that we are feared through no fault of our own, that people (mostly male republican lawmakers, not women,) want to separate us from polite society? Because as I've said over and over again, it will be a fight just to get these same lawmakers to agree to allocate funds to building unisex bathrooms in the buildings without them.
Or do we put our fight into a worthy solution: getting people to understand that we are not our genitals?
Either way it's going to be one hell of a fight. People don't want to do either for us. Forcing people to accept the fact that we are who we say we are, that we have just as much right to be in the bathrooms that they use, and that trans women are not men in women's clothing bent on stalking unsuspecting women and girls is a much more worthy fight. It results in more understanding, and it results in us being treated with dignity.
Also, the point where I say that trans people's rights overshadow bigots' rights...yeah, no apologies. You refuse to acknowledge the very undeniable fact that the few women who are terrified of trans women in the bathroom are not having their rights infringed upon. They're not, that is not conjecture. And you choose to prioritize the right for idiots to kick an oppressed minority out of a public space because they're afraid. Just like you might have defended the rights of whites who were just so afraid of black people sharing public spaces with them during the time of segregation. They're afraid of nothing, but let's appease their ignorance.
@Cody, this has been ... eye-opening to say the least. I originally thought of Wayne as a pretty good guy who didn't understand some things, but was willing to learn. He's much like my family, in that they mean well by saying that I need to get over it when I or other trans folks are being treated like second-class citizens. But ultimately this prioritizing of the rights of bigots to be bigots is what hurts this community the most.
Jake
Two cents from a cisgender woman born in North Carolina who has since escaped...
Maybe it's because I'm blind and don't have the whole hangup about someone looking at me, but I don't really care who's peeing with me. We all need to pee. Sure, someone could squat down and peer under the door at me, but I'm pretty sure that's just as illegal for another cisgender woman to do as a trans woman. I don't even know what would happen in the case of a peeping lady. how often does that even happen... well, outside of my dog peering under the stall at the person next door. I understand that some women may feel uncomfortable with a male-looking trans woman walking into a bathroom, but there are stalls. Get over yourself and go pee. Nobody's going to look at you. I think our little girls and boys could benefit from understanding all the diversity in the world. Kids will understand as they are taught. Trans people exist. Gay and lezbians exist. People missing arms, people with different facial appearances, bald people, all these different things exist in our world. Explain what that means to your kid and move on. They won't be scarred for life unless you teach them fear and hate.
I've never been close enough to a trans person to smell them. All I get is a voice, which can be very gender neutral, especially with hormone therapy involved. Far as I'm concerned, if you identify as a man calling yourself Ian, you're Ian, and you're a man. That might be easier for me to assimilate because I'm not faced with any visual contradictions to that identity-- like why is Ian wearing a dress? Still, I'd like to think that wouldn't affect my judgement. Guess I'll never know.
I'm still trying to figure out how I feel about locker rooms. I don't want to strip naked in front of a bunch of cisgender women as it is. Scarlett and Maybelle might be the nicest of church ladies, but I'm not comfortable with that. It's not gender specific, it's human specific. That's my own personal hangup. If we had privacy options for those who chose it, I wouldn't give a shit who was changing where. I understand that naked women might feel uncomfortable seeing a naked biological male anatomy. But again, if we were a more open and accepting society, crossing gender lines wouldn't be an issue.. .but that's wishing for fishes we don't have. I'm not going to go into a rant about what society *should* be like.
We're all just people trying to live our lives crawling over this rock. I personally hate the anti-trans legislation. I think it's closed-minded, backwards, and dangerous. We need to respect a person's identity in whatever form that takes e.g I'm blind, I'm a trans man, I'm a lesbian, I'm southern, I'm a cancer survivor. Why can't we just embrace the person as they come? When has pandering to delicate sensabilities ever done our society any favors? Trans people exist. you can't hide from it forever. Trans people use whatever bathroom they want, as has been previously stated. Has the world exploded yet? What's to stop a cisgender man from barging into the ladies room and groping somebody? A woman would probably scream, drawing reenforcements. There are cameras to catch the offender's image for punishment. There are other people around. Why are any of these things different when conservatives are screaming about trans women potentially doing the same thing? A straight, cisgender woman could do it. Anybody could do it. There is always the potential for bad shit to happen, but it's a public bathroom. Just go pee and move on about your day like everyone else around you.
TLDR: We're all people. I do my best to respect identity, and who cares what you were born as? I understand discomfort, but I think that's born of fear and generations of entrenched phobia. In any case, gender diversity is here people, so suck it up and learn to deal. It's stupid. There's a book called "Everybody Poops." Somebody should write "Everybody Pees."
Well Addly, I’m sorry we don’t agree, and I’m only talking about this one aspect of your issue, not all of it.
Sure, I’m a bad guy, because I’m not 100% with you.
If you are not 100% with us, you are against us, is how it goes in this world most times.
80% isn’t good enough.
“He thinks I should just suck it up and get over it.” I’ve never said such, but I didn’t say you were right, so.
I’ll accept that.
For the record. I don’t see you as a bad guy.
Yes, I know, that doesn’t matter, but there it is
You just think he shouldn't be allowed to pee in the bathroom he identifies
with because he's not quite enough of a good guy for you, and little old ladies
might get upset. If you were trying for moral high ground there wayne, you
should try going morally upward, not digging yourself deeper. But I waste my
breath, you're too much of a coward to actually step outside your own situation
enough to see someone else's life.
Wayne, thank you for talking sense here--you wanted a woman's opinion, so I'll elaborate a little more on mine.
You are right that it is the appearance of someone who says they're male, but is actually female, going into the bathroom that would cause many women, including me, discomfort. Also though, it's the fact they're so adamant that they're a man when they were clearly born a woman, that I have trouble with.
Because let's face it: if I went into a public bathroom today, woman that I am, dressed in men's clothing, people would more than likely tell me to go use another bathroom. And rightfully so, because I would be trying to pass off as something that I am not. How anyone could see that as wrong, is beyond my comprehension.
Oh and by the way: most of these people here are arguing with their emotions. That's why they are cussing, calling you names, ETC, Wayne. They are unable to get their point across as you and I are, through using descriptive and honest words. It's sad, but I hope there comes a day when transgender people accept the reality that women are not only uncomfortable, but totally bothered by the way they try to pass off as a different sex than they are born as. Also, hopefully they will learn to have compassion about women's feelings like me, because they do matter, they are valid and they will be heard.
So now do I have to grow my hair long or risk being beaten up for looking ambiguous?
Genuinely can't wait for Jake or especially Cody to mercilessly shut post 150 down and then stomp on it some more.
Chelsea, I could expound on precisely why your post is wrong and inaccurate
and several other adjectives. However, I have read enough of your drivel to pick
out the operant word in your post, "beyond my comprehension". Chelsea,
sweetie, the amount of things in this wonderful world of ours that are beyond
your comprehension would boggle the mind of even the meanest personality if
thought on for more than a few seconds. Your inability to understand even the
simplest of ideas is well known to anyone with an inkling of intellect on here. So
if you are the only ally Wayne can get on here, I'd say my side has pretty much
won the battle. When all you are fighting is cowards and idiots, you've won.
Your kind, by which I mean ignorant, poorly if at all educated, backward, sudo-
right wing, almost invariably christian, self-obsessed, pointless people, have
become so unnecessary in this world, and have reached such a state of
depravity and sheer unadulterated whininess, that I think it is high time we stop
treating you as adults. You think like children, act like children, frankly bitch like
children, and are as spoiled and self-centered as children, so I see no reason
why you should not be treated as the children you clearly want to be. and
children, in my book, do not have the right or the expectation of the courtesy of
having their ideas considered by rational minds. I would not listen to my nieces
ideas on why Fluttershy is the greatest pony, and your special brand of vacuous
inane drivel is not worth anything more than her cartoon musings. When you
decide to start thinking, and more importantly acting, like an adult, then
perhaps we'll allow you to voice your opinion as if you're an equal of even the
weakest member of the intelligencia, but until then I see nothing which
separates you from the bits of mysterious and useless gunk I flecked off the
bottom of my shoes this morning. I have precisely the same amount of respect
for the two of you.
Wayne, I guarantee you there are more women who feel as I do; they are just too intimidated by people like the ones on here who constantly name-call, belittle, ETC, because others have a different perspective than they do. However, we must continue to speak up. Not because we wanna fight, as most on here want to do, but because we have valid points, period.
It's unfortunate more women won't come on here and be honest as I have been, but maybe with us continuing to speak up, someone will see our posts someday and be grateful we used our voices to help people see things clearly.
Am I the only one who reads Chelsea's posts in the voice of an angry toddler?
Meany weany Cody is making funsies of me, and I don't likes it. I'm scared of
big bad Cody and his big words. But I'm a brave little princess, so I'll talk about
how my entirely ficticious problems are worth anyone listening to me. I have
thoughts dammit, why won't anyone listen to me. I feel persecuted even though
I'm part of a group that makes up seventy percent of the american people. I'm
threatened by this tiny group who just wants equal rights. But they can't have
equal rights, because that makes me feel all icky. If they can be a different
gender, what if I'm a different gender? I don't wanna be a different gender
mommy, don't make me do it. Don't let the evil trans people take me away
mommy.
Some of the responses on this board are absolutely disgusting.
I, a cis woman would rather share a bathroom with a trans woman than a transphobic fucking prick any day.
Shame on all you blind people who throw a fit when we are discriminated against but are happy to do the same to someone else.
You want to know why trans people shouldn't find a compromise? Because there isn't one, short of saying that people are allowed to be prejudiced and that we as a society accept it. Why should trans people be forced to use a separate bathroom, just because it will make some people more comfortable.
You want to know what I'd think if I was told that I, a blind person, should use a different bathroom because my guide dog makes people uncomfortable? I'd think fuck that noise, and fight for my rights to access that space. And why should we tell trans people to do anything different.
Stop hiding behind concern. When people imply that trans men and women aren't complete, aren't whole, that shows how fucking backwards are society is.
Because they are complete. They are men, or women, end of. Using language like full, or complete, to describe cis people shows how entirely fucking ignorant and prejudiced you are.
The problem I see with the position of people like Chelsea and wayne, is that its completely illogical. the rate of these kinds of crimes happening is statistically so low, its almost 0. There are more trans people in this country than crimes like that which people fear take place by a huge factor. Women are more likely to be peeped on by hidden cameras, or men who just don't give a fuck.
The logical solution in this case is to educate people, have an adult conversation about things. These fears are just as unfounded as people worrying about being attacked by terrorists, or struck by lightning.
You're way more likely to be hit by a drunk driver than raped by a trans woman, for example.
The thing that sickens me about these kinds of debates in the blind population though, is that we have members of our extremely small minority group (the legally blind) trying to take rights away from another extremely small minority group. Legally blind people make up about 0.005 percent of the population. Trans people are estimated to make up between 0.003 to 0.0005 percent of the population. Some experts believe there could be even more trans people out there for many reasons. Incorrect data reporting, trans people being unwilling to disclose this information, etc... There is no logical, non fear based, reason I can think of to take such a hypocritical stance.
Chelsea, considering you yourself knows what its like to be discriminated against by a society... Are you actually capable of saying the kinds of things you've said here to a trans individual in person? Fuck woman, considering some of your other life experiences I won't out here, this honestly baffles me.
Even if I didn't have a trans friend, I couldn't just casually strip the humanity away from someone like that.
This is an emotional topic. I knew that when I took the side of the women.
I don’t think it is a small group. Leo only posted one groups discomfort.
I have been made to understand there are whole Facebook groups that disagree for varying reasons. Some I’d say were valid, others not.
In my case, I’ve tried to be understood I don’t agree with discrimination.
It isn’t the fact these people are trans gender. The problem is not knowing they are trans gender, when they appear fully male dressed as women.
Trans gender people don’t carry a licenses, they don’t have a special sign that is visible showing they are trans gender, so I believe this is what causes the fear among these women.
Trans gender people are not pedophiles, they are not predators, they are not in the bathrooms on all fours looking under stalls, and they are not interested in having a peek at women.
I’ve said all this, and more before.
Because I’ve not stated no matter what a person appears as gender wise, they should be allowed full access gets lost, and I’m accused of discrimination.
People get angry, and emotion causes everything else I’ve stated to go out the window.
I’d have to agree 100%, or I’m homophobic, a coward, and all other such things.
Some here start to sling mud, but on the other hand say they’d like to have an intelligent discussion.
How can we have a discussion, if all you want to hear is your views?
It stops being a discussion at that point, and especially when people are looking forward to reading how well one person puts another person down.
If we are having an intelligent discussion, we are going to have lots of viewpoints. Some you will agree with, others you won’t.
If we are having a mud sling contest, then discussion has stopped, and as one poster stated, people become childish.
I’d wager more would post that have different viewpoints, if this was actually a discussion and they could voice opinions without being called names and such.
I still strongly believe that unisex baths would go a long way to solving some of this issue.
I agree it won’t happen overnight, and I have agreed the measure can’t be based on trans gender, but has to be billed for everyone’s benefit.
No discussion has been opened up on how unisex baths might be put in to place.
No discussion has opened up about how we could protect women from honest predators that will take advantage of allowing people that are still fully male in women’s bathrooms.
No discussion has been had about educating people that aren’t aware of trans gender people’s needs.
I only receive anger from the opposing side, and I’ve not given it back, and won’t.
This post has been read, what will I be now?
Do you want a discussion?
If not, and I've said this before, I really need to get out of this one.
I see that no one has tried to answer my question. These stories about women being thrown out of restrooms for not looking feminine enough make me nervous. I have very short hair. I've been mistaken for a guy when seen from far off or from behind or in low light. So do I grow it out? Should I also change my wardrobe to be extra safe? I'm not afraid of transgender women, but bathroom police would scare me. They would not only hurt transgender people but also make life harder for the rest of us. This just doesn't make sense.
I’ll answer that. Sorry, I haven’t before.
I’ll explain it from a visual point of view.
Even a woman with short hair, or bald, still has female traits.
I don’t know your body, so I’m speaking generally.
First, your hands and head are not male.
You don’t have the square, or slim build of a male, even if you are a really thin woman.
Men have Adam apples; the throat is not flat like a women’s.
You don’t have a slight bulge in your pants like men do, and if you even have small breast, you have some.
I’ve even seen women that are flat chested, but the upper body is built differently.
A slender woman can pass as male if she’s in the dark or low light and dressed male in some cases, but if someone takes a good look at her, she’ll not pass.
The face is different on women then men. That has to do with skullshape and size.
Keep your hair short if that pleases you, you’ll not get mistaken.
Ask one of your class mates to tell you if I’m right.
Ask your doctor.
Wayne, here is another thought I have: people thinking they are transgender is a mental illness, and that something bad happened to them as children, so they act out now because they are insecure and have a low self-esteem.
Also Wayne, if you think about it, the argument about us being blind and using that to justify being ttransgender does not fly. Here is why: we cannot help being blind. People can absolutely help who they fall in love with. To say otherwise is ignorant.
What does falling in love have to do with this topic?
Forereel I'm pretty aware of the differences. You're saying that reasonably observant people won't mistake me for something I'm not. But who says the so-called bathroom police will be reasonably observant?
Wow, people can choose who they fall in love with? In a way, I can understand how you see it. After all, you used to really be in to women... until you chose not to be. Mainly, you choose to be fake.
Sure. And all gay people have to do is fall in love with someone of the opposite gender and they're not gay anymore. Look how well that turned out for me. Three words for what I did: Stupid, moronic and idiotic. But then, that statement comes from someone who procllaimed once that gay people are gay because they say they are, not because they're attracted to people of the same gender. And she's a liberal Christian? Which is something she also said somewhere else? She's about as much a liberal Christian as my grandmother was a bus.
Be honest here people, chelsea is nothing. She is whatever the people around
her want her to be. A while back she rode my coattails, to the point where the
only things she would post on these boards is "what Cody said". Now she hates
everything I say. She used to be gay, now she's not. She has no identity but
what suits her at the moment. Which, in essence, means she is nothing at all. at
least wayne is solid in his cowardice.
Chelsea.
I won’t agree it is a mental illness, but I will agree events in childhood might have some bearing on why we choose our sexual, or gender identity.
I can’t say if these events are bad, or positive.
I have thought it might be possible, but was made surer of that opinion because of a couple people.
One of these people happens to be a member of the Zone.
One evening a large group were having a public discussion, and the member stated events in childhood may be the reason they were as they were.
The other was a roommate I had for a couple years who felt he was as he was because of his upbringing.
I also agree that we can help who we fall in love with. It was one of the peaceful discussions on this board at the start.
Some agreed, some disagreed.
Give it a read and you’ll see the different opinions.
Voyager, I don’t think you are in danger of being mistaken, and if you ever are, you’d be much richer for it.
Another example.
You probably know I’m in to bodybuilding.
In college, I had a female friend that was a pro bodybuilder, meaning she got paid for doing it.
Nike gave her so much money to wear their clothes, and such.
This lady was extremely built, and could beat us all in the gym, even our football team lifting in many areas.
Her specialty was the dead lift, and she was able to pull 550 pounds.
She had shorter hair, but not because she cut it that way, it just grew that way. She’s a black woman, and some of them never have really long hair naturally.
She would wear sweats, and jeans, she wasn’t much for dresses. At no time was she ever miss taken for a man.
At the end of the day, she was very much a woman.
No matter what race, some women simply don’t have long hair naturally.
If you read the top of this board, you’ll note it is my opinion that even after people are surgically altered, it is possible to tell they were male or female before.
Again, ask your doctoror some professional in this area.
I personally can shave, put on a dress, make up. My nails will naturally grow long, so I can paint them.
I use to have long hair, and once I did all of this for a party I was attending.
I just looked like a guy dressed to the max as a girl.
My left ear is pierced, so I put on a clip earing to match the one I wore naturally too, and a bracelet.
So, you’ll be fine.
I'm just gonna say it. I asked for a poll and I got one. Let's see: I think it's 4 against one, in favor of cis women accepting trans women thus far.
Also it is possible to be misgendered. I used to have long hair when younger, and from behind I sometimes got "ma'm." All I had to do was turn around.
I've seen my Wife get misgendered also, She is of Nordic proportions, tall and such. I am short for a man with rather slim shoulders for a man.
The problem will likely be from cisgendered women who see you from behind, Voyager. It really depends on your state and location.
But in the same way Dan Savage called out the moderate Christians to encourage their less moderate fellows to treat gays with respect, I stand by the same here. As a man I've no stake in the situation. I'm not in the ladies' room. This one falls to cisgendered women to calm each other down over this issue. After all, panicked calls to police will only come from inside those particular facilities. The informal poll on here is thus far in favor of cis women supporting trans women. In my own city, there are places where that would be the case. However, the two cases I am aware of where a trans woman was unlawfully questioned (it is in fact unlawful out here), it was not a man doing the questioning, and a man who stood to support the trans woman was called a sexist.
Complete trans women, or would they have any objection to men that are just dressed such?
What I mean by that, and I've said before, if a person is a trans woman, that isn't the problem, it is the appearance that is.
Will you share that with us?
Good idea.
I also got mistaken for a woman from the back, but not after I turned around due to my hair and I have a slim waist.
That shouldn't keep her out of the bathroom though.
the only informal poll is based on the women responding on here.
Now as to out here? I think in one case the woman was more masculine looking but not so in the second. The poll was just the responses on here, people on here saying they're women and whether they support or don't support trans women in their bathroom. Many a feminist man may hate this all they want, but this problem is ultimately up to cis women. There were laws against weed in Oregon 25 years ago, but sure as a musician I could get weed or speed at a gig from people who you wouldn't guess would have it. It only matters in the end if someone calls the cops. I'm not supporting the law on this one, don't get me wrong. But an example of where the llaw differs from what actually happens? We moved into a neighborhood out here when I was in high school, and later learned in some paperwork the association still claimed only Caucasian people could live there. You couldn't tell the Asians that, who lived down the street from us. And my sister, also adopted, is half native American and half Arab, and nobody said boo.
If cis women don't say boo, nobody will ever notice. As I said earlier, no one will say a thing, no atter how much Ted Cruz and Mike Huckabee may wish to be on the inside of the women's bathroom, for policing purposes of course, they shan't be allowed in there.
Just to be clear Leo, this isn't only a female problem. its not only women who
are complaining about having transgendered people in their bathroom. The
reason we're focusing on women is because people are trying to use protection
of women as a defense of their bigotry. The simple fact of the matter is that
there is a subsect of our society that some people are trying to force into
second-class-citizen status. Some people, notably two in this case, are
supporting that. The fact that both of those two are memebers of minorities
who themselves have been forced to be second-class-citizens in the past merely
demonstrates that bigotry and hypocrisy usually go hand in hand.
Leo’s informal poll results gave me another idea I’d like to toss in the discussion.
I only asked a few people, and learned appearance was the problem, but I’ve not done a poll.
A couple of my people told me about the Facebook groups I mentioned.
So, if the trans gender community could get enough signatures on a ballot stating majority of women do not care if trans gender women use the bathroom, no matter what their appearance is, that would force, or cause change in the laws.
I’ll take this a step further.
If women don’t care who shares their bathrooms, all that need be done is to remove urinals from men’s bathrooms, and the signs that designate men’s or women’s to make them unisex.
If the stalls don’t happen to be private enough for a person, male or female, that person has the choice not to use that specific bathroom.
Lots of water and other resources can be saved this way, plus cost of new and remodeling construction will go down.
The trans gender issue is now void, as far as this segment goes in that event.
Not all trans gender issue, mind, but the bathroom issue.
It was how Colorado got pot legalized, even though it is still federally illegal, and we can’t bank our money earned by this trade.
Not directly anyway.
We also can’t accept a credit card to purchase pot in our stores, because that is saying the banking industry supports it.